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Logistics were never the issue. US was pressurising Poland and other countries for at least a week to transfer the planes to Ukraine. Poland doesn't want to do

by omega3 5y ago

Logistics were never the issue. US was pressurising Poland and other countries for at least a week to transfer the planes to Ukraine. Poland doesn't want to do by itself for obvious reasons so they've proposed for the US to take ownership and transfer the migs themselves and provide compensation down the line.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> US was pressurising Poland and other countries for at least a week to transfer the planes to Ukraine. US has been portrayed (almost certainly accurately) as an obstacle to countries doing it directly since NATO (almost certainly at US direction) shot the original leaked idea down; the recent “green light” for direct transfer was no doubt an attempt to not be seen as the barrier to direct transfer, but hardly constitutes pressure to do it, and if the US wanted it done they could have explained not doing it in a way which wasn't clearly an argument for why transferring planes isn't a good idea, but was instead an argument for why the particular proposal made by Poland wasn't.
- omega3 5y ago
  In fact it's been reported in many sources that it was the other way round https://m.dw.com/pl/niemiecka-prasa-o-mig-29-dla-ukrainy-polska-nie-chce-by%C4%87-na-celowniku-putina/a-61046444 https://m.dw.com/pl/niemiecka-prasa-o-mig-29-dla-ukrainy-pol...
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    I think this article gets to the real issue; all the procedural problems are because everyone thinks the planes are a suboptimal idea that isn't worth the escalation risk, but no one wants to tell Ukraine that. Which makes it look like the US just bit the bullet on that and stopped playing the deflection game everyone has been playing.
T-A 5y ago
> Logistics were never the issue Of course. > transfer the migs themselves Again: how?
- omega3 5y ago
  Fly them through Poland or through Romania - it doesn't matter. It was never about logistics. The reason Poland wanted to do it this was to involve US and Germany indirectly in the deal.
  - T-A 5y ago
    > Fly them through Poland That means Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. If Poland had simply handed over the planes to the Ukrainians in Poland, the result would have been... Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. If Poland had instead handed over the planes to US troops in Poland, without moving them, and the US had then handed them over to the Ukrainians, the result would have been... Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. So you get exactly the same result in all three cases. What Poland doesn't want is Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. > or through Romania Yes, that's what this is really about.
- rasz 5y ago
  You do realize those are rugged cold war planes? They have zero problem landing on ordinary two lane road. You can fly to the border, land in front of crossing, push planes over the border and let Ukrainians do whatever they want.
  - T-A 5y ago
    > You can fly to the border, land in front of crossing, push planes over the border and let Ukrainians do whatever they want. That doesn't solve the real issue, which is, AGAIN, that Poland does not want those planes crossing into Ukraine from its border. Whether they fly in or roll in is utterly irrelevant.
    - rasz 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
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by omega3 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> US was pressurising Poland and other countries for at least a week to transfer the planes to Ukraine. US has been portrayed (almost certainly accurately) as an obstacle to countries doing it directly since NATO (almost certainly at US direction) shot the original leaked idea down; the recent “green light” for direct transfer was no doubt an attempt to not be seen as the barrier to direct transfer, but hardly constitutes pressure to do it, and if the US wanted it done they could have explained not doing it in a way which wasn't clearly an argument for why transferring planes isn't a good idea, but was instead an argument for why the particular proposal made by Poland wasn't.

omega3 5y ago
In fact it's been reported in many sources that it was the other way round https://m.dw.com/pl/niemiecka-prasa-o-mig-29-dla-ukrainy-polska-nie-chce-by%C4%87-na-celowniku-putina/a-61046444 https://m.dw.com/pl/niemiecka-prasa-o-mig-29-dla-ukrainy-pol...
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  I think this article gets to the real issue; all the procedural problems are because everyone thinks the planes are a suboptimal idea that isn't worth the escalation risk, but no one wants to tell Ukraine that. Which makes it look like the US just bit the bullet on that and stopped playing the deflection game everyone has been playing.

T-A 5y ago

> Logistics were never the issue Of course. > transfer the migs themselves Again: how?

omega3 5y ago
Fly them through Poland or through Romania - it doesn't matter. It was never about logistics. The reason Poland wanted to do it this was to involve US and Germany indirectly in the deal.
- T-A 5y ago
  > Fly them through Poland That means Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. If Poland had simply handed over the planes to the Ukrainians in Poland, the result would have been... Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. If Poland had instead handed over the planes to US troops in Poland, without moving them, and the US had then handed them over to the Ukrainians, the result would have been... Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. So you get exactly the same result in all three cases. What Poland doesn't want is Ukrainian MiG-29s crossing into Ukraine from Poland. > or through Romania Yes, that's what this is really about.
rasz 5y ago
You do realize those are rugged cold war planes? They have zero problem landing on ordinary two lane road. You can fly to the border, land in front of crossing, push planes over the border and let Ukrainians do whatever they want.
- T-A 5y ago
  > You can fly to the border, land in front of crossing, push planes over the border and let Ukrainians do whatever they want. That doesn't solve the real issue, which is, AGAIN, that Poland does not want those planes crossing into Ukraine from its border. Whether they fly in or roll in is utterly irrelevant.
  - rasz 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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