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The analogy falls flat on its face when you realize that crypto transactions both take more time and cost more money than PayPal, credit/debit, ACH, etc. When

The analogy falls flat on its face when you realize that crypto transactions both take more time and cost more money than PayPal, credit/debit, ACH, etc. When Apple introduced iTunes, the appeal to consumers was obvious: You can buy only the songs you want, you are not forced to buy a whole album. You can do it from the comfort of your home. And you don't have to go through the (then time consuming) process of ripping a CD to get it on your iPod. With cryptocurrencies, I see no such obvious benefits that would compel consumers to trade their bank accounts and credit cards for ethereum wallets. The transaction fees are considerably higher. Their decentralized nature, often touted as their greatest asset, becomes and anti-feature once you need to issue a chargeback for a purchase from a fraudulent seller. Crypto does not solve a problem people regularly deal with, and nothing about it is fundamentally easier than the systems it seeks to replace.

delabay 5y ago
> both take more time and cost more money than PayPal, credit/debit, ACH, etc. Stopped paying attention here. So, so..so incorrect.
- scubbo 5y ago
  Wow, did gas fees drop to $0!? That's huge news, I'm surprised the media hasn't reported on it!
  - namibj 5y ago
    PayPal is around 2-3%, credit/debit around 0.5-5% depending on where and whether you have a physical card reader. ACH is, to my understanding, cents or even less than one, but suffering from an utter lack of security/authentication.
    - iudqnolq 5y ago
      CashApp/Venmo is free from the perspective of the average American if they have a debit card. (They make money off data and credit card fees).
      - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
        Correction: They make money by selling your transaction data to hedge funds and advertisers for profiling and targeting.
        iudqnolq 5y ago
        As I said, data and credit card fees.
      - namibj 5y ago
        Last I looked, they did not seem to be free for commercial use (including cases with just B2C transactions). I see these as worse, because they suggest to the average consumer American that sending money is free, reducing pressure on a proper low-delay settlement system with sufficiently low fees to allow users to ignore the fees in most instances. Say, 1ct + 0.05%. (That's AFAIK comparable to SEPA's version of electronic checks (i.e., asynchronous pull), and fees for low-latency push shouldn't exceed 0.2%, either. With delayed settlement, even push should allow the very low fees, though.)
    - biztos 5y ago
      Meanwhile, in the Eurozone, electronic cash and wire transfers have had fees of exactly €0.00 for many years, and my online-only bank does “instant” transfers (takes a few seconds but that’s mostly the app latency) up to €2000 for the same price. The transaction-cost problem has many possible solutions.
  - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
    Right now the average on-chain Bitcoin payment for $0.94 USD. I bought a conference ticket a couple weeks ago from someone in Thailand for $0.24 USD. One confirmation took 6 minutes. This isn’t a Lightning payment which would be nearly instant and almost free. It is a payment on the Bitcoin blockchain. Remember, that payment includes final settlement, something that can take months for a credit card merchant. Also, there are many other Proof-of-stake chains that offer faster and cheaper settlement.
    - scubbo 5y ago
      $0.24 > $0.00, though. And: > something that can take months for a credit card merchant OK, instant closing is desirable for sellers - but why would a consumer care?
      - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
        Whether consumers realize it or not, the risk of chargebacks does increase the cost to the merchants which they absolutely pass onto consumers in the form of higher prices.
        scubbo 5y ago
        And those merchants will still charge those higher prices no matter what method you're using to pay, unless they only accept crypto. So by paying with crypto you're paying an artificially-higher price _and_ paying gas fees.
    - themacguffinman 5y ago
      That's quite a high fee for zero fraud protection.
OrlandoHakim 5y ago
It’s true that txs take more time and money in POW chains such as Bitcoin or Ethereum, but it is certainly not true of many many other cryptocurrencies. For example, Terra is a Proof of Stake blockchain with negligible fees and a 6 second settlement time. It is currently widely used as a payment system in South Korea.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  What about charge backs? What protections do I have?
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    No chargebacks and ability for government or corporate deplatforming.
    - kaesar14 5y ago
      That’s not a problem the average consumer has, not even close to the same way music was really annoying to consume before the iPod. Like, sucks for those it happens to, but it just isn’t a “real” problem in the grand scheme of life
      - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
        The average consumer is currently facing the prospect of high-inflation, exploding gas prices, and is facing a real challenge if they want to safely save the purchasing power of their earnings. I consider these to be important problems to solve so the average consumer can continue to stay above water and maybe even get ahead in life. There is a joke about how the things we want are getting cheaper (iPhones, TVs, music streaming) while the things we need are getting more expensive (food, housing, healthcare, higher education) Offering society a high-yield stablecoin savings option finally allows people to grow their savings and stay ahead of inflation with low relative risk. I think that’s a honking good idea.
        5y ago
mperham 5y ago
You make a lot of sense, babypuncher.

delabay 5y ago

> both take more time and cost more money than PayPal, credit/debit, ACH, etc. Stopped paying attention here. So, so..so incorrect.

scubbo 5y ago
Wow, did gas fees drop to $0!? That's huge news, I'm surprised the media hasn't reported on it!
- namibj 5y ago
  PayPal is around 2-3%, credit/debit around 0.5-5% depending on where and whether you have a physical card reader. ACH is, to my understanding, cents or even less than one, but suffering from an utter lack of security/authentication.
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    CashApp/Venmo is free from the perspective of the average American if they have a debit card. (They make money off data and credit card fees).
    - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
      Correction: They make money by selling your transaction data to hedge funds and advertisers for profiling and targeting.
      - iudqnolq 5y ago
        As I said, data and credit card fees.
    - namibj 5y ago
      Last I looked, they did not seem to be free for commercial use (including cases with just B2C transactions). I see these as worse, because they suggest to the average consumer American that sending money is free, reducing pressure on a proper low-delay settlement system with sufficiently low fees to allow users to ignore the fees in most instances. Say, 1ct + 0.05%. (That's AFAIK comparable to SEPA's version of electronic checks (i.e., asynchronous pull), and fees for low-latency push shouldn't exceed 0.2%, either. With delayed settlement, even push should allow the very low fees, though.)
  - biztos 5y ago
    Meanwhile, in the Eurozone, electronic cash and wire transfers have had fees of exactly €0.00 for many years, and my online-only bank does “instant” transfers (takes a few seconds but that’s mostly the app latency) up to €2000 for the same price. The transaction-cost problem has many possible solutions.
- OrlandoHakim 5y ago
  Right now the average on-chain Bitcoin payment for $0.94 USD. I bought a conference ticket a couple weeks ago from someone in Thailand for $0.24 USD. One confirmation took 6 minutes. This isn’t a Lightning payment which would be nearly instant and almost free. It is a payment on the Bitcoin blockchain. Remember, that payment includes final settlement, something that can take months for a credit card merchant. Also, there are many other Proof-of-stake chains that offer faster and cheaper settlement.
  - scubbo 5y ago
    $0.24 > $0.00, though. And: > something that can take months for a credit card merchant OK, instant closing is desirable for sellers - but why would a consumer care?
    - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
      Whether consumers realize it or not, the risk of chargebacks does increase the cost to the merchants which they absolutely pass onto consumers in the form of higher prices.
      - scubbo 5y ago
        And those merchants will still charge those higher prices no matter what method you're using to pay, unless they only accept crypto. So by paying with crypto you're paying an artificially-higher price _and_ paying gas fees.
  - themacguffinman 5y ago
    That's quite a high fee for zero fraud protection.

OrlandoHakim 5y ago

It’s true that txs take more time and money in POW chains such as Bitcoin or Ethereum, but it is certainly not true of many many other cryptocurrencies. For example, Terra is a Proof of Stake blockchain with negligible fees and a 6 second settlement time. It is currently widely used as a payment system in South Korea.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
What about charge backs? What protections do I have?
- ipaddr 5y ago
  No chargebacks and ability for government or corporate deplatforming.
  - kaesar14 5y ago
    That’s not a problem the average consumer has, not even close to the same way music was really annoying to consume before the iPod. Like, sucks for those it happens to, but it just isn’t a “real” problem in the grand scheme of life
    - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
      The average consumer is currently facing the prospect of high-inflation, exploding gas prices, and is facing a real challenge if they want to safely save the purchasing power of their earnings. I consider these to be important problems to solve so the average consumer can continue to stay above water and maybe even get ahead in life. There is a joke about how the things we want are getting cheaper (iPhones, TVs, music streaming) while the things we need are getting more expensive (food, housing, healthcare, higher education) Offering society a high-yield stablecoin savings option finally allows people to grow their savings and stay ahead of inflation with low relative risk. I think that’s a honking good idea.
      - 5y ago

mperham 5y ago

You make a lot of sense, babypuncher.