4 ms·

Russia-phobia isn't going to help the Ukraine. Hate in any form isn't going to help.

by exabrial 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
1ris 5y ago
This is not Russophobic. This is war-crime-critical. Oh and when attracted you can surrender or fight. If you fight you might loose, but if you don't, you lost. Hate is not only justified, it does absolutely help.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Sanctions targeted at the leaders making the decisions in Russia seem war-crime-critical. Indiscriminately screwing over random citizens who may not even support the regime or war isn't war-crime-critical.
  - bufferoverflow 5y ago
    Look at the polls. Russian population is supporting this crazy war. They are not some innocent bystanders.
  - beebmam 5y ago
    The sanctions will stop when Russia halts its invasion. It's not like this is a one-sided affair. Russia has decided its invasion is worth more than sanctions on its own people. No country owes it to any other country to trade with them. Any country absolutely has the right to revoke its willingness to trade with other countries on a case by case basis. Any country or organization that sanctions Russia is doing the right thing, too; all decent people in the world should be using all non-violent means at the minimum to make war so costly for aggressors that war becomes near-impossible. If anything, Russia is not sanctioned enough currently. Edit: Don't forget that there are > 2 million Ukrainian refugees currently who have been forced to flee their country. Those that continue to live in Ukraine are having their homes and infrastructure bombed or disconnected. The suffering of the Russian people due to these sanctions pales in comparison to the suffering that the Russian government/military is directly inflicting on Ukrainians. Those sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops inflicting harm on Ukrainians.
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      What is your history with sanctioning? What country are you from? Have you ever sanctioned anyone before in this manner? Israel? Syria? Iraq? The US? China? India? I never said sanctioning couldn't be done. I'm just saying if your sanctions affect random citizens who are already powerless, and not the leaders of the country, then you're just being an asshole, and no, you aren't helping.
      - fouc 5y ago
        Sanctions are a step down from going to war. Are you advocating that sanctions should be skipped, and we should just go straight to war? Sanctions are just one of the few tools in the toolbox that can be used to punish a country's leadership, besides going to war.
        oh_sigh 5y ago
        I've already stated that I'm okay with sanctions that target the actual leadership of Russia but not random citizens who already have no power over their government.
        fouc 5y ago
        How is that possible? Leadership already steal from their citizens anyways.
      - beebmam 5y ago
        Are you claiming that sanctions on Russia will affect ONLY the average citizens of Russia; that is, are you arguing that sanctions on Russia will have ZERO effect on the country's ability to wage its aggressive war in Ukraine? It seems to me that this is your implied argument here, and if so, that's straight up incorrect. If that ISN'T your argument, is your argument then: "Sanctions will affect both the Russian government's ability to wage war AND the Russian people, and because the sanctions affect the Russian people, they are not justified" ? Could it ever be the case that sanctions could affect only a government's ability to wage war and never the people of a country? Are you then arguing that sanctions are never justified no matter the circumstances? How far are you willing to take this argument? Should a country be forced to trade and engage in business with a country that is currently invading them? I really don't understand exactly what you're arguing here and I'd appreciate clarification
  - 1ris 5y ago
    War is a interaction between nations as a hole. Just like Russia as a uniform entity attacks and supplies this war (via taxes, e.g.), Ukraine as a whole is the victim of the attack. It is the responsibility of the average Russian joe to ensure he has a non-war-warmongering government. If the fails that responsibility, he will have to suffer the consequences. Even With or without any sanctions, just as the natural course due to the nature of war. Keep things in perspective: No body wants to send the average internet user to la Hague. That's the place for Putin and those who fly the air raids. This is just making this average day a bit worse for the sake of stifling Russias ability to sustain this attack. All of this will stop the moment the invasion stops. Russian Joes wants it to stop? Fine, go complain at those who choose to continue the war. There is a direct cause-and-effect relation there.
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      - butthe88 5y ago
      - 1ris 5y ago
        Does punching them in the noose reduce the ability of the state of russia to wage war? No. So don't do it. People don't have their citizen ship tattooed to their faces. What you wrote is just plain silly. Should you punch your boss (nationality irrelevant) in the face for selling MREs and Ammo to Russia? Absolutely.
        googlryas 5y ago
        Sure it does. Most people don't want to get punched in the nose, so they will work harder to stop the war in order to not get punched in the nose. I'd love to know how info-isolating Russia is effective at reducing the ability of the state to wage war, but not punching random Russians in the nose.
        5y ago
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    I'm for opening up the internet there - even as others point out there's not much we can do when RU has their own great firewall. But two things in response to this: - While hard to know with certainty, there is strong evidence a plurality of Russians support the war. Caveat given what they are swayed by Putins' gov media lies. I read 58% in this source and I can't find it but I think Navalny org said 50%. [1] Furthermore yes while it seems young conscripts were sent into Ukraine at this point it would be very clear to those on the ground what they are doing. I get they are probably making calculations about punishment or even death for desertion. But they aren't ignorant at this point but active participants. Russian civilians aren't close to wholly innocent. - I'm afraid that targeted sanctions have not and will not work. I'm not sure if punishing the population economically will cause regime change. I hope it will. They have to fight if they want it - yes I understand the deadly costs of that but it's a choice millions of people are making in Ukraine and have throughout history. One reason there is more sympathy than say Afghanistan. Even if lowering life quality in Russia doesn't cause change, this is a response to obscene attacks; i think the sanctions are actually less than proportional/reciprocal. proportional would be 'kinetic' military but that's obviously super dangerous. Should always remember humanitarian aid through. Sadly this high road is being bombed in Ukraine right now (maternity ward is just another stressed expletive filled morning for me) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-public-opinion-ukraine-invasion/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi...
axiosgunnar 5y ago
I am afraid of Russia. Who isn't afraid of a corrupt super-oligarch that seems to have the authority to kill tens of thousands at a whim with his nation-state army and doesn't answer to nobody? Nevermind the nuclear button! I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance" You gonna start chasing them with pitchforks in your own country?
  - flyinglizard 5y ago
    Well if they come in armed convoys…
- m000 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure there have been (and still are) more than one country leaders that fit your description. Some of them even come with a complimentary nuclear button.
strathmeyer 5y ago
Russian propaganda is that this war is because of the west's Russia-phobia and hatred.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
And is pointing out that Russia used the internet extensively to meddle in numerous elections and the societal issues of numerous countries, and openly condones organized crime and private citizens engaging in hacking against anyone not Russian "Russia-phobia"? If you want to keep filling up your car with gas, maybe stop setting people's barns on fire all the time.
ed_balls 5y ago
That's why call it Putin's war. Russian didn't vote for it.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Some did. If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    > If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands. Not when the consequence of that is being beaten up, tortured, and then put in prison for up to 15 years (as per the recent law changes). Oh, and getting your relatives punished as well, despite them having nothing to do with it. Here is a take on it from Human Rights Watch[0]. Just the knowledge of such consequences makes a person just shut down, carry on, and not worry much about anything except your own and your family's survival. Side-tangent: sometimes I really do wonder what kind of cushy and sheltered lives some users on HN live, where they instantly jump to "if people don't protest in millions, it means they support Putin". I think I am pretty comfortable now, but I still very clearly remember what it was like living in Russia (before I escaped to the US over a decade ago), so these types of replies grind me the wrong type of way. And yes, there are plenty of people who actually support Putin in Russia, and we need them on our side. Some support him out of ignorance, some for other reasons. But, I think, it is a bit less surprising if you phrase it as "Plenty of Russian people supported the special operation for liberating people in Ukraine". It is a blatant lie, but more and more people in Russia are opening their eyes to this being total bs. Sanctions help, outside news drumming up the reporting of the conflict help. On their own, those things don't seem that wild, but if you couple total brainwashing with extremely severe and brutal consequence for even questioning the narrative, you get an extremely repressed population that will be heavily discouraged (even within their own heads) from protesting. 0. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-and-torture-ill-treatment-anti-war-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an...
- Barrin92 5y ago
  Putin has broad support in the Russian population. And that support went up after the annexation of Crimea and the start of this war. I have family and friends in Russia, all of which have access to international media, and many of them are still at the very least moderately supportive of this. This narrative that Putin is somehow solely waging a war with the entire population in opposition is an absolute meme. If the Russian people were sick of him they'd depose him, elections or no elections, Russians have done it to their leaders plenty of times.
mistrial9 5y ago
agree with this
lottin 5y ago
Exactly, Ukrainians need to change their strategy, because hate won't work against Russians. Instead they need to attack the Russian invaders with flowers and confetti. This will surely stop them.

Russia-phobia isn't going to help the Ukraine. Hate in any form isn't going to help.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

1ris 5y ago

This is not Russophobic. This is war-crime-critical. Oh and when attracted you can surrender or fight. If you fight you might loose, but if you don't, you lost. Hate is not only justified, it does absolutely help.

oh_sigh 5y ago
Sanctions targeted at the leaders making the decisions in Russia seem war-crime-critical. Indiscriminately screwing over random citizens who may not even support the regime or war isn't war-crime-critical.
- bufferoverflow 5y ago
  Look at the polls. Russian population is supporting this crazy war. They are not some innocent bystanders.
- beebmam 5y ago
  The sanctions will stop when Russia halts its invasion. It's not like this is a one-sided affair. Russia has decided its invasion is worth more than sanctions on its own people. No country owes it to any other country to trade with them. Any country absolutely has the right to revoke its willingness to trade with other countries on a case by case basis. Any country or organization that sanctions Russia is doing the right thing, too; all decent people in the world should be using all non-violent means at the minimum to make war so costly for aggressors that war becomes near-impossible. If anything, Russia is not sanctioned enough currently. Edit: Don't forget that there are > 2 million Ukrainian refugees currently who have been forced to flee their country. Those that continue to live in Ukraine are having their homes and infrastructure bombed or disconnected. The suffering of the Russian people due to these sanctions pales in comparison to the suffering that the Russian government/military is directly inflicting on Ukrainians. Those sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops inflicting harm on Ukrainians.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    What is your history with sanctioning? What country are you from? Have you ever sanctioned anyone before in this manner? Israel? Syria? Iraq? The US? China? India? I never said sanctioning couldn't be done. I'm just saying if your sanctions affect random citizens who are already powerless, and not the leaders of the country, then you're just being an asshole, and no, you aren't helping.
    - fouc 5y ago
      Sanctions are a step down from going to war. Are you advocating that sanctions should be skipped, and we should just go straight to war? Sanctions are just one of the few tools in the toolbox that can be used to punish a country's leadership, besides going to war.
      - oh_sigh 5y ago
        I've already stated that I'm okay with sanctions that target the actual leadership of Russia but not random citizens who already have no power over their government.
        fouc 5y ago
        How is that possible? Leadership already steal from their citizens anyways.
    - beebmam 5y ago
      Are you claiming that sanctions on Russia will affect ONLY the average citizens of Russia; that is, are you arguing that sanctions on Russia will have ZERO effect on the country's ability to wage its aggressive war in Ukraine? It seems to me that this is your implied argument here, and if so, that's straight up incorrect. If that ISN'T your argument, is your argument then: "Sanctions will affect both the Russian government's ability to wage war AND the Russian people, and because the sanctions affect the Russian people, they are not justified" ? Could it ever be the case that sanctions could affect only a government's ability to wage war and never the people of a country? Are you then arguing that sanctions are never justified no matter the circumstances? How far are you willing to take this argument? Should a country be forced to trade and engage in business with a country that is currently invading them? I really don't understand exactly what you're arguing here and I'd appreciate clarification
- 1ris 5y ago
  War is a interaction between nations as a hole. Just like Russia as a uniform entity attacks and supplies this war (via taxes, e.g.), Ukraine as a whole is the victim of the attack. It is the responsibility of the average Russian joe to ensure he has a non-war-warmongering government. If the fails that responsibility, he will have to suffer the consequences. Even With or without any sanctions, just as the natural course due to the nature of war. Keep things in perspective: No body wants to send the average internet user to la Hague. That's the place for Putin and those who fly the air raids. This is just making this average day a bit worse for the sake of stifling Russias ability to sustain this attack. All of this will stop the moment the invasion stops. Russian Joes wants it to stop? Fine, go complain at those who choose to continue the war. There is a direct cause-and-effect relation there.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    - butthe88 5y ago
    - 1ris 5y ago
      Does punching them in the noose reduce the ability of the state of russia to wage war? No. So don't do it. People don't have their citizen ship tattooed to their faces. What you wrote is just plain silly. Should you punch your boss (nationality irrelevant) in the face for selling MREs and Ammo to Russia? Absolutely.
      - googlryas 5y ago
        Sure it does. Most people don't want to get punched in the nose, so they will work harder to stop the war in order to not get punched in the nose. I'd love to know how info-isolating Russia is effective at reducing the ability of the state to wage war, but not punching random Russians in the nose.
        5y ago
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  I'm for opening up the internet there - even as others point out there's not much we can do when RU has their own great firewall. But two things in response to this: - While hard to know with certainty, there is strong evidence a plurality of Russians support the war. Caveat given what they are swayed by Putins' gov media lies. I read 58% in this source and I can't find it but I think Navalny org said 50%. [1] Furthermore yes while it seems young conscripts were sent into Ukraine at this point it would be very clear to those on the ground what they are doing. I get they are probably making calculations about punishment or even death for desertion. But they aren't ignorant at this point but active participants. Russian civilians aren't close to wholly innocent. - I'm afraid that targeted sanctions have not and will not work. I'm not sure if punishing the population economically will cause regime change. I hope it will. They have to fight if they want it - yes I understand the deadly costs of that but it's a choice millions of people are making in Ukraine and have throughout history. One reason there is more sympathy than say Afghanistan. Even if lowering life quality in Russia doesn't cause change, this is a response to obscene attacks; i think the sanctions are actually less than proportional/reciprocal. proportional would be 'kinetic' military but that's obviously super dangerous. Should always remember humanitarian aid through. Sadly this high road is being bombed in Ukraine right now (maternity ward is just another stressed expletive filled morning for me) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-public-opinion-ukraine-invasion/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi...

axiosgunnar 5y ago

I am afraid of Russia. Who isn't afraid of a corrupt super-oligarch that seems to have the authority to kill tens of thousands at a whim with his nation-state army and doesn't answer to nobody? Nevermind the nuclear button! I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
FpUser 5y ago
>"I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance" You gonna start chasing them with pitchforks in your own country?
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  Well if they come in armed convoys…
m000 5y ago
I'm pretty sure there have been (and still are) more than one country leaders that fit your description. Some of them even come with a complimentary nuclear button.

strathmeyer 5y ago

Russian propaganda is that this war is because of the west's Russia-phobia and hatred.

KennyBlanken 5y ago

And is pointing out that Russia used the internet extensively to meddle in numerous elections and the societal issues of numerous countries, and openly condones organized crime and private citizens engaging in hacking against anyone not Russian "Russia-phobia"? If you want to keep filling up your car with gas, maybe stop setting people's barns on fire all the time.

ed_balls 5y ago

That's why call it Putin's war. Russian didn't vote for it.

krzyk 5y ago
Some did. If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands.
- filoleg 5y ago
  > If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands. Not when the consequence of that is being beaten up, tortured, and then put in prison for up to 15 years (as per the recent law changes). Oh, and getting your relatives punished as well, despite them having nothing to do with it. Here is a take on it from Human Rights Watch[0]. Just the knowledge of such consequences makes a person just shut down, carry on, and not worry much about anything except your own and your family's survival. Side-tangent: sometimes I really do wonder what kind of cushy and sheltered lives some users on HN live, where they instantly jump to "if people don't protest in millions, it means they support Putin". I think I am pretty comfortable now, but I still very clearly remember what it was like living in Russia (before I escaped to the US over a decade ago), so these types of replies grind me the wrong type of way. And yes, there are plenty of people who actually support Putin in Russia, and we need them on our side. Some support him out of ignorance, some for other reasons. But, I think, it is a bit less surprising if you phrase it as "Plenty of Russian people supported the special operation for liberating people in Ukraine". It is a blatant lie, but more and more people in Russia are opening their eyes to this being total bs. Sanctions help, outside news drumming up the reporting of the conflict help. On their own, those things don't seem that wild, but if you couple total brainwashing with extremely severe and brutal consequence for even questioning the narrative, you get an extremely repressed population that will be heavily discouraged (even within their own heads) from protesting. 0. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-and-torture-ill-treatment-anti-war-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an...
Barrin92 5y ago
Putin has broad support in the Russian population. And that support went up after the annexation of Crimea and the start of this war. I have family and friends in Russia, all of which have access to international media, and many of them are still at the very least moderately supportive of this. This narrative that Putin is somehow solely waging a war with the entire population in opposition is an absolute meme. If the Russian people were sick of him they'd depose him, elections or no elections, Russians have done it to their leaders plenty of times.

mistrial9 5y ago

agree with this

lottin 5y ago

Exactly, Ukrainians need to change their strategy, because hate won't work against Russians. Instead they need to attack the Russian invaders with flowers and confetti. This will surely stop them.