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Roskomsvoboda statement on foreign companies’ sanctions against Russians [pdf]

143 points by EugeneOZ 5y ago

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EugeneOZ 5y ago
This PDF doesn't contain text in Russian to don't push back people who can't read Russian. It was done by me, text was not edited at all, only russian pages removed. Original document (ru, en, fr): https://roskomsvoboda.org/uploads/documents/statement_of_roskomsvoboda_team.pdf https://roskomsvoboda.org/uploads/documents/statement_of_ros... Web version (ru): https://roskomsvoboda.org/post/zayavlenie-protiv-otklyuchenia-rf-akkov/ https://roskomsvoboda.org/post/zayavlenie-protiv-otklyucheni...
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exabrial 5y ago
Russia-phobia isn't going to help the Ukraine. Hate in any form isn't going to help.
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- 1ris 5y ago
  This is not Russophobic. This is war-crime-critical. Oh and when attracted you can surrender or fight. If you fight you might loose, but if you don't, you lost. Hate is not only justified, it does absolutely help.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Sanctions targeted at the leaders making the decisions in Russia seem war-crime-critical. Indiscriminately screwing over random citizens who may not even support the regime or war isn't war-crime-critical.
    - bufferoverflow 5y ago
      Look at the polls. Russian population is supporting this crazy war. They are not some innocent bystanders.
    - beebmam 5y ago
      The sanctions will stop when Russia halts its invasion. It's not like this is a one-sided affair. Russia has decided its invasion is worth more than sanctions on its own people. No country owes it to any other country to trade with them. Any country absolutely has the right to revoke its willingness to trade with other countries on a case by case basis. Any country or organization that sanctions Russia is doing the right thing, too; all decent people in the world should be using all non-violent means at the minimum to make war so costly for aggressors that war becomes near-impossible. If anything, Russia is not sanctioned enough currently. Edit: Don't forget that there are > 2 million Ukrainian refugees currently who have been forced to flee their country. Those that continue to live in Ukraine are having their homes and infrastructure bombed or disconnected. The suffering of the Russian people due to these sanctions pales in comparison to the suffering that the Russian government/military is directly inflicting on Ukrainians. Those sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops inflicting harm on Ukrainians.
      - oh_sigh 5y ago
        What is your history with sanctioning? What country are you from? Have you ever sanctioned anyone before in this manner? Israel? Syria? Iraq? The US? China? India? I never said sanctioning couldn't be done. I'm just saying if your sanctions affect random citizens who are already powerless, and not the leaders of the country, then you're just being an asshole, and no, you aren't helping.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  I am afraid of Russia. Who isn't afraid of a corrupt super-oligarch that seems to have the authority to kill tens of thousands at a whim with his nation-state army and doesn't answer to nobody? Nevermind the nuclear button! I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance.
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  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance" You gonna start chasing them with pitchforks in your own country?
    - flyinglizard 5y ago
      Well if they come in armed convoys…
  - m000 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure there have been (and still are) more than one country leaders that fit your description. Some of them even come with a complimentary nuclear button.
- strathmeyer 5y ago
  Russian propaganda is that this war is because of the west's Russia-phobia and hatred.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  And is pointing out that Russia used the internet extensively to meddle in numerous elections and the societal issues of numerous countries, and openly condones organized crime and private citizens engaging in hacking against anyone not Russian "Russia-phobia"? If you want to keep filling up your car with gas, maybe stop setting people's barns on fire all the time.
- ed_balls 5y ago
  That's why call it Putin's war. Russian didn't vote for it.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    Some did. If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands.
    - filoleg 5y ago
      > If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands. Not when the consequence of that is being beaten up, tortured, and then put in prison for up to 15 years (as per the recent law changes). Oh, and getting your relatives punished as well, despite them having nothing to do with it. Here is a take on it from Human Rights Watch[0]. Just the knowledge of such consequences makes a person just shut down, carry on, and not worry much about anything except your own and your family's survival. Side-tangent: sometimes I really do wonder what kind of cushy and sheltered lives some users on HN live, where they instantly jump to "if people don't protest in millions, it means they support Putin". I think I am pretty comfortable now, but I still very clearly remember what it was like living in Russia (before I escaped to the US over a decade ago), so these types of replies grind me the wrong type of way. And yes, there are plenty of people who actually support Putin in Russia, and we need them on our side. Some support him out of ignorance, some for other reasons. But, I think, it is a bit less surprising if you phrase it as "Plenty of Russian people supported the special operation for liberating people in Ukraine". It is a blatant lie, but more and more people in Russia are opening their eyes to this being total bs. Sanctions help, outside news drumming up the reporting of the conflict help. On their own, those things don't seem that wild, but if you couple total brainwashing with extremely severe and brutal consequence for even questioning the narrative, you get an extremely repressed population that will be heavily discouraged (even within their own heads) from protesting. 0. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-and-torture-ill-treatment-anti-war-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an...
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    Putin has broad support in the Russian population. And that support went up after the annexation of Crimea and the start of this war. I have family and friends in Russia, all of which have access to international media, and many of them are still at the very least moderately supportive of this. This narrative that Putin is somehow solely waging a war with the entire population in opposition is an absolute meme. If the Russian people were sick of him they'd depose him, elections or no elections, Russians have done it to their leaders plenty of times.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  agree with this
- lottin 5y ago
  Exactly, Ukrainians need to change their strategy, because hate won't work against Russians. Instead they need to attack the Russian invaders with flowers and confetti. This will surely stop them.
spupe 5y ago
I agree with this statement. Cutting people off from the internet in today's world is akin to cutting them off electricity. I also worry that while the West seems to be in complete agreement that harsh punishment on Russia is fair, it may or may not be the case in the future that such punishment is reserved to those who "deserve" it.
- EugeneOZ 5y ago
  Cutting off the electricity is less damaging. Because if they have no sources of information, then all they have is propaganda. If they have no access to free chat apps - they have no safe way to communicate. It just can not help them to overthrow Putin. I see the point in economic sanctions - people should be forced to go to the streets. Brutally forced, if needed. I agree that it's necessary. But they still should have access to information (not only propaganda) and secure communication.
  - KarlKemp 5y ago
    In almost all cases, cutting off the electricity over any significant amount of time will also make it impossible to access the internet. It is therefore impossible for only the second thing to be worse than the first & second thing.
    - EugeneOZ 5y ago
      Without electricity, you have solar chargers and wifi/4g.
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      OP's point is that "cutting off the internet" means cutting off access to the Western internet, and not "all internet".
      - EugeneOZ 5y ago
        There are ways to deliver propaganda without the internet (television, lessons in schools - it is being heavily used right now), but there are no ways to spread the real information without Internet access.
KarlKemp 5y ago
These measures definitely hit many users that aren't causally responsible for the acts of their government. Some may even be in open opposition of the acts committed in their name. Unfortunately, the latter is but a small fraction of the population. The vast majority of Russians are remaining silent. The chance that these blocks will prevent any of that group from learning about the war when they still have not been reached at this point is slim. Blocking of accounts doesn't usually prevent you from reading the news, anyway. Russian media is downplaying the event. Making peoples' lives inconvenient has the chance of making them take notice, which is a first step.
- EugeneOZ 5y ago
  It's not about the inconvenience at all.
throwmeariver1 5y ago
It is with sanctions as it is with war civilians, progressives, everyone will get hurdled up in it. Arguing for one but not against the other is hubris.
tlogan 5y ago
Just remind everybody what is going on in Ukraine: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as-ukrainians-try-to-evacuate-11646819525 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as...
- jwilk 5y ago
  Non-AMP link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as-ukrainians-try-to-evacuate-11646819525 https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as-ukr...
delegate 5y ago
The Internet was totally open for Russians until 2 weeks ago. Yet that did not stop the war, even after months of warnings and pleas from the entire world. People of Russia did not try to stop Putin from the inside, too few went to the streets to prevent the war from starting. They did not do enough to protest against the illegal annexation of Crimea and the creation of the 'republics' in 2014. Most services were up until the day the war started, people could share information freely, they could use the word 'war' and 'peace' without risk of being arrested. Yet that did not help. In fact, the power in Russia is known to exploit the unlimited access to world Internet to spread out misinformation, get involved in hacking political campaigns in other countries, kremlin bots, ransomware gangs, etc. Due to this war, Russians are no longer considered trustworthy partners in politics, business, sports, science, arts, etc, so companies choose not to be associated with Russia because that hurts their business in other countries around the world. I mean, to the world Putin is Hitler now. Would you agree to Hitler keeping all his international privileges while he was invading other countries ? Businesses have to do what they have to do. Sadly that means that those 22% percent of Russians who oppose the war will have to endure the full impact of the world's emotional reaction to what the majority of Russians allowed to happen (and currently support).
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  > The Internet was totally open for Russians until 2 weeks ago. It was not. Roskomsvoboda was created to track blocking lists in 2012. It's been 10 years since internet started to be blocked in Russia.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    It was totally open from the side of the rest of the world. Like 99% open even from the inside. You are pecking on a branch, but the argument you reply to speaks about the forest.
- EugeneOZ 5y ago
  Even the most ideological putinists will lose the battle to their refrigerators soon - because of economic sanctions. It will lead them to the streets. And at this moment they'll look for a leader, for the truth, for the information and secure communications (free of censorship). This statement is not about lifting the economic sanctions, it's only about Internet access.
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jolmg 5y ago
Kind of wish the comments here would focus more on the need to fight the Russian propaganda. The point on how isolating the Russians helps the propaganda seems like the most important take-away. Instead comments seem to focus on how Russians deserve punishment, but how productive is this type of punishment? I would think it's an important goal to turn the Russians against Putin.
- ardit33 5y ago
  'Isolating Russia' -- Didn't they just ban FB and Twitter there? Aren't they cutting off their own internet as well? How is this the west doing? The west is not isolating them, just they are self isolating. All independent media had to shut down there.
  - jolmg 5y ago
    > The west is not isolating them, just they are self isolating. Western services are also cutting them off. I get the sense that's helping Putin. An example: > Namecheap: Russia Service Termination https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30504812 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30504812 Maybe a DNS service is not the best example, but I feel like it's not the only service that I've seen do this. EDIT: Better example: > Internet backbone provider shuts off service in Russia https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/5/22962822/internet-backbone-provider-cogent-shuts-off-service-russia https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/5/22962822/internet-backbone...
    - ardit33 5y ago
      And your point is? They can use their own services, nobody wants to prevent that. But guess what? Putin doesn't like its citizen's to be able to read outside sources and is shutting things outside access himself. Even BBC has to restart using AM radio for its russian services (not done since the Cold War). Stop 'victim playing' and blaming the west, when you should be blaming your leader for the massive censorship going on in Russia right now.
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Animats 5y ago
Keeping ordinary Russians connected to the outside world is a win for all sides. Every news outlet in Russia that wasn't totally state controlled has been shut down. Rain TV was the last to go.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  There is a downside to this too: Russian propaganda is aimed abroad as well, and it is surprisingly effective in spite of us having access to alternative news sources. Their talking points and quotes show up all over the internet, including on HN, with alarming regularity.
  - DenisM 5y ago
    A well funded troll farm will find a way to connect to the western internet. A poorly funded dissident will not.
xdennis 5y ago
> so-called "special operation" in Ukraine You can't take them seriously when they parrot the Kremlin's language. They only use "so-called" to avoid calling it what it is: a war of conquest. Putin explicitly said he wants Crimea and Donbas.
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  Russians can be heavily penalized by calling this anything other than the Kremlin’s official line.
  - diego_moita 5y ago
    The (Russian) author lives in Barcelona, Spain. What penalty would he receive? [1] https://stackoverflow.com/cv/oz https://stackoverflow.com/cv/oz
    - EugeneOZ 5y ago
      I am not the author of the statement. So I do call it war: https://twitter.com/eugeniyoz/status/1496855352310222849 https://twitter.com/eugeniyoz/status/1496855352310222849
    - kreeben 5y ago
      Imprisonment of his relatives in Russia. This is not unheard of.
      - usrusr 5y ago
        I'd say that for this level of formality, it might very well be (completely unheard of). For authors feverishly calling their countrymen at home to rise up, sure, but for something like this? Would be a waste of prison food.
- brimble 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure "so-called" and scare quotes were supposed to communicate in bright flashing lights that they don't think the label is accurate.
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viktorcode 5y ago
TL;DR Cogent did what Putin was doing for the last decade: destroying free internet in Russia.
birdyrooster 5y ago
What a joke. This is troll bait intended to start a flame war.
- 9214 5y ago
  What an interesting case of self-describing sentence!
  - butthe88 5y ago
    They’ve had the open internet in Russia for a while and yet they’re still committed to dear leader, as witnessed by Russians lack of effort to depose him. This statement should really target Russia for the same thing, so yeah it’s troll bait. It’s propaganda to instigate “ooh the poor Russian victims of their own indifference.” discourse. We can see in this thread it worked. Circle around logical propositions all you want, theorizing has little value when the behavior is concrete.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    Precisely the issue with the post, it encourages my behavior.
egze 5y ago
Quite a lot of condemning, demanding and calling for actions from the western society. Yet, not once was the word "war" mentioned. Not once were the actions of the Russian government and Putin condemned. How about you - Roskomsvoboda focus your energy on stopping the war, so Ukrainians can also enjoy the benefits of new technologies?
- EugeneOZ 5y ago
  Are you aware that there is a law (published a few days ago) and people living in Russia can be sentenced to 15 years in prison for calling it war?
ccbccccbbcccbb 5y ago
I'll just leave it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_anti-war_protests_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_anti-war_protests_in_Russ...
danbruc 5y ago
What about not shutting down the internet but replying to ten percent of all requests with information and images about the war instead of the requested page?
poxrud 5y ago
"We strongly condemn the actions of governments and the private sector, represented by the owners of websites, social networks, online platforms and marketplaces who resort to arbitrarily blocking accounts of or restricting access to users from Russia and arbitrary labeling of the content of Russian users." It's hard to take them seriously when they don't even condemn the war crimes of their own government.
sega_sai 5y ago
I think it is a very important point. I perfectly well understand (and share) the anger against Russia, and desire to use sanctions and withdrawal of companies/services as a tool to reduce the quality of life in Russia and through that (hopefully) affect the policies of the Russian state/change the government. One can argue whether they will be effective, but it is a tool that is used as an alternative to pure war, and so I'd argue it is better. But in the same time, I certainly recommend for every company to think a little bit whether their withdrawal is going to make the regime life easier or harder. I would think that withdrawal of Cogent was counterproductive. Similarly I think the stopping of Mastercard/Visa (effective immediately) mostly hurt people who just recently left russia under the threat to their lives (like independent journalists). All that said, it's hard to ask companies to make a careful analysis about the consequences of their actions on Russian regime as that's not their job. So for sure there will be unintended consequences like hurting some people who were fighting the regime, and consequences helping Russia. I just hope the companies will try to minimise those and think a little before following the current pressure to disassociate from Russia.
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  It’s intentional to hurt Russian citizens economically. It’s up to them to decide to form a government that doesn’t invade others. Aside from war, this is the only thing the West can do to stop this insane aggression.
  - sega_sai 5y ago
    Yes, that is okay with me and understandable. It's just if the West says, lets cut off the Internet from Russia, I think that will just help the Russian government, so therefore it's not a good idea in my book.
    - mikob 5y ago
      If it would help them, they would've done it themselves. They've already taken out Twitter and Facebook without any hesitation.
diego_moita 5y ago
If western internet were that dangerous to the Russian Regime they'd already have it blocked. They already did it with FB and other sites. This "Statement" looks a lot like a false flag.
mmaunder 5y ago
I don’t think you can entirely separate the accountability of a government from the accountability of its people. Take Apartheid South Africa for example: Tremendous external pressure was applied on South Africa which affected its people. I was one of them. This created the impetus for internal change and resulted in, first a referendum to determine if South Africa would become a democracy- and then the actual transformation. The world must continue to apply pressure on the whole of Russia. It sucks for the Russian people. Trust me, I get it.
- bufferoverflow 5y ago
  Look at the polls. Russian people support this war. They deserve everything that's happening to them in retaliation.
  - jamesakirk 5y ago
    Which polls? Please be specific. Are the polling methods and results beyond the influence of Russian State? Further, even if they are correct, to what extent is their response based on incorrect or insufficient information (which I strongly suspect)?
    - altmind 5y ago
      https://twitter.com/alexey_minyaylo/status/1500789953042821122 https://twitter.com/alexey_minyaylo/status/15007899530428211... 1807 polled in RU, 59% said they support the russian invasion https://www.dorussianswantwar.com/ https://www.dorussianswantwar.com/
      - fulafel 5y ago
        Media controls are difficult there, but still, this is just a guy on the internet who does his own polling apparently (both links about same). Would be good to have more data.
  - EB-Barrington 5y ago
    This is hard for many people to accept. The Russian people guilty. If we believe in democracy, then accept that it's the majority will of the Russian people to support Putin's decision to send forces to: - bomb hospitals - kill children - rape women - massacre civilians - destroy homes - bomb a holocaust memorial site - etc etc etc Russia will not recover from this in any of our lifetimes. When the true scale of this terror inflicted upon Ukraine is known by the world, frankly, everyone will be shocked beyond belief. Hello from Kyiv
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baggioronaldo 5y ago
Sanctions against Russia should focus on stopping the war, and not merely on punishing Russians. I think that cutting off internet in Russia punishes Russia, but doesn't do anything towards stopping the war. On the contrary, eliminating internet will further cut off Russians from the truth, resulting in further brainwashing of Russian population, more support for Putin, and ultimately more Ukrainian deaths.
- brimble 5y ago
  Does the global Internet, or does it not, provide immense value to an economy? If it does, then of course we should consider cutting them off. If not, then IDK why we're all so well-paid. I think the "we could use it to counter propaganda" angle is weak. If Russia thought that might work, they would have already cut it off.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I think the "we could use it to counter propaganda" angle is weak. If Russia thought that might work, they would have already cut it off. More to the point, Russia does think that might work, and has been selectively cutting off the parts that it sees as enabling that. What's left is what the Russian government sees as useful for themselves.
    - brimble 5y ago
      Yes, that's a good point. They've shown themselves entirely willing to cut out the parts that they think do them more harm than good. What remains is the part they think is net-beneficial, so unless we think they are very wrong about that it may well be sensible to cut off their access completely, to the extent we are able.
      - baggioronaldo 5y ago
        AFAIK, Russia did not yet turn off YouTube because many millions of Russians use YouTube for entertainment purposes (not for politics) and turning YouTube off would piss off that huge part of the population. It would be more convenient to have YouTube turn itself off, since in that case those millions of Russians would be pissed off at YouTube & USA (instead of being pissed at the Russian government)
pacific_citizen 5y ago
Hi from Moscow. Right now Putin spend billion dollars from oil and gas to sponsor war and inner forces which harshly destroy any protests. The only effective sanctions *against* Putin – is to cut down buying gas and oil. But Europe and other countries resist to do so. Yeah, it may sounds promising to someone that cutting Russian off the Internet will help protests, but it's not. Regime is still incredibly rich and could sponsor any aggressive activity. First thing that West must do – to make Putin's poor. And then Russians could resist against him. Right now he has multi billions army and law against unarmed citizens.
Imnimo 5y ago
I'm not sure I buy the argument that this will provide "cover" to the Russian government to isolate the country from the global internet. What cover do they need? If we are to believe that the Russian people are powerless to stop the invasion of Ukraine, then wouldn't they be equally powerless to stop their government from disconnecting them from the internet, with or without cover?
gerdesj 5y ago
I started out deploying the righteous spear of whatevs but I think I need some more context here. What is Roskomsvoboba?
- altmind 5y ago
  quote: Roskomsvoboda is a Russian non-governmental organization that supports open self-regulatory networks and protection of digital rights of Internet users. The organization aims to counteract censorship on the Internet and to popularize the ideas of freedom of information and self-regulation.
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
We should be beaming our own propaganda into Russia in massive quantities. Maybe the massive sanctions are a pretext to this: drop the sanctions and let goods and services flood back in. Only the goods and services will be stuffed full of war images and demoralizing content.

143 points by EugeneOZ 5y ago

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[deleted]

This PDF doesn't contain text in Russian to don't push back people who can't read Russian. It was done by me, text was not edited at all, only russian pages removed. Original document (ru, en, fr): https://roskomsvoboda.org/uploads/documents/statement_of_roskomsvoboda_team.pdf https://roskomsvoboda.org/uploads/documents/statement_of_ros... Web version (ru): https://roskomsvoboda.org/post/zayavlenie-protiv-otklyuchenia-rf-akkov/ https://roskomsvoboda.org/post/zayavlenie-protiv-otklyucheni...

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exabrial 5y ago

Russia-phobia isn't going to help the Ukraine. Hate in any form isn't going to help.

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1ris 5y ago
This is not Russophobic. This is war-crime-critical. Oh and when attracted you can surrender or fight. If you fight you might loose, but if you don't, you lost. Hate is not only justified, it does absolutely help.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Sanctions targeted at the leaders making the decisions in Russia seem war-crime-critical. Indiscriminately screwing over random citizens who may not even support the regime or war isn't war-crime-critical.
  - bufferoverflow 5y ago
    Look at the polls. Russian population is supporting this crazy war. They are not some innocent bystanders.
  - beebmam 5y ago
    The sanctions will stop when Russia halts its invasion. It's not like this is a one-sided affair. Russia has decided its invasion is worth more than sanctions on its own people. No country owes it to any other country to trade with them. Any country absolutely has the right to revoke its willingness to trade with other countries on a case by case basis. Any country or organization that sanctions Russia is doing the right thing, too; all decent people in the world should be using all non-violent means at the minimum to make war so costly for aggressors that war becomes near-impossible. If anything, Russia is not sanctioned enough currently. Edit: Don't forget that there are > 2 million Ukrainian refugees currently who have been forced to flee their country. Those that continue to live in Ukraine are having their homes and infrastructure bombed or disconnected. The suffering of the Russian people due to these sanctions pales in comparison to the suffering that the Russian government/military is directly inflicting on Ukrainians. Those sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops inflicting harm on Ukrainians.
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      What is your history with sanctioning? What country are you from? Have you ever sanctioned anyone before in this manner? Israel? Syria? Iraq? The US? China? India? I never said sanctioning couldn't be done. I'm just saying if your sanctions affect random citizens who are already powerless, and not the leaders of the country, then you're just being an asshole, and no, you aren't helping.
axiosgunnar 5y ago
I am afraid of Russia. Who isn't afraid of a corrupt super-oligarch that seems to have the authority to kill tens of thousands at a whim with his nation-state army and doesn't answer to nobody? Nevermind the nuclear button! I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance.
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- FpUser 5y ago
  >"I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance" You gonna start chasing them with pitchforks in your own country?
  - flyinglizard 5y ago
    Well if they come in armed convoys…
- m000 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure there have been (and still are) more than one country leaders that fit your description. Some of them even come with a complimentary nuclear button.
strathmeyer 5y ago
Russian propaganda is that this war is because of the west's Russia-phobia and hatred.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
And is pointing out that Russia used the internet extensively to meddle in numerous elections and the societal issues of numerous countries, and openly condones organized crime and private citizens engaging in hacking against anyone not Russian "Russia-phobia"? If you want to keep filling up your car with gas, maybe stop setting people's barns on fire all the time.
ed_balls 5y ago
That's why call it Putin's war. Russian didn't vote for it.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Some did. If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    > If most would object you would see millions in streets, not few thousands. Not when the consequence of that is being beaten up, tortured, and then put in prison for up to 15 years (as per the recent law changes). Oh, and getting your relatives punished as well, despite them having nothing to do with it. Here is a take on it from Human Rights Watch[0]. Just the knowledge of such consequences makes a person just shut down, carry on, and not worry much about anything except your own and your family's survival. Side-tangent: sometimes I really do wonder what kind of cushy and sheltered lives some users on HN live, where they instantly jump to "if people don't protest in millions, it means they support Putin". I think I am pretty comfortable now, but I still very clearly remember what it was like living in Russia (before I escaped to the US over a decade ago), so these types of replies grind me the wrong type of way. And yes, there are plenty of people who actually support Putin in Russia, and we need them on our side. Some support him out of ignorance, some for other reasons. But, I think, it is a bit less surprising if you phrase it as "Plenty of Russian people supported the special operation for liberating people in Ukraine". It is a blatant lie, but more and more people in Russia are opening their eyes to this being total bs. Sanctions help, outside news drumming up the reporting of the conflict help. On their own, those things don't seem that wild, but if you couple total brainwashing with extremely severe and brutal consequence for even questioning the narrative, you get an extremely repressed population that will be heavily discouraged (even within their own heads) from protesting. 0. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-and-torture-ill-treatment-anti-war-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an...
- Barrin92 5y ago
  Putin has broad support in the Russian population. And that support went up after the annexation of Crimea and the start of this war. I have family and friends in Russia, all of which have access to international media, and many of them are still at the very least moderately supportive of this. This narrative that Putin is somehow solely waging a war with the entire population in opposition is an absolute meme. If the Russian people were sick of him they'd depose him, elections or no elections, Russians have done it to their leaders plenty of times.
mistrial9 5y ago
agree with this
lottin 5y ago
Exactly, Ukrainians need to change their strategy, because hate won't work against Russians. Instead they need to attack the Russian invaders with flowers and confetti. This will surely stop them.

spupe 5y ago

I agree with this statement. Cutting people off from the internet in today's world is akin to cutting them off electricity. I also worry that while the West seems to be in complete agreement that harsh punishment on Russia is fair, it may or may not be the case in the future that such punishment is reserved to those who "deserve" it.

EugeneOZ 5y ago
Cutting off the electricity is less damaging. Because if they have no sources of information, then all they have is propaganda. If they have no access to free chat apps - they have no safe way to communicate. It just can not help them to overthrow Putin. I see the point in economic sanctions - people should be forced to go to the streets. Brutally forced, if needed. I agree that it's necessary. But they still should have access to information (not only propaganda) and secure communication.
- KarlKemp 5y ago
  In almost all cases, cutting off the electricity over any significant amount of time will also make it impossible to access the internet. It is therefore impossible for only the second thing to be worse than the first & second thing.
  - EugeneOZ 5y ago
    Without electricity, you have solar chargers and wifi/4g.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    OP's point is that "cutting off the internet" means cutting off access to the Western internet, and not "all internet".
    - EugeneOZ 5y ago
      There are ways to deliver propaganda without the internet (television, lessons in schools - it is being heavily used right now), but there are no ways to spread the real information without Internet access.

KarlKemp 5y ago

These measures definitely hit many users that aren't causally responsible for the acts of their government. Some may even be in open opposition of the acts committed in their name. Unfortunately, the latter is but a small fraction of the population. The vast majority of Russians are remaining silent. The chance that these blocks will prevent any of that group from learning about the war when they still have not been reached at this point is slim. Blocking of accounts doesn't usually prevent you from reading the news, anyway. Russian media is downplaying the event. Making peoples' lives inconvenient has the chance of making them take notice, which is a first step.

EugeneOZ 5y ago
It's not about the inconvenience at all.

throwmeariver1 5y ago

It is with sanctions as it is with war civilians, progressives, everyone will get hurdled up in it. Arguing for one but not against the other is hubris.

tlogan 5y ago

Just remind everybody what is going on in Ukraine: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as-ukrainians-try-to-evacuate-11646819525 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as...

jwilk 5y ago
Non-AMP link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as-ukrainians-try-to-evacuate-11646819525 https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as-ukr...

delegate 5y ago

The Internet was totally open for Russians until 2 weeks ago. Yet that did not stop the war, even after months of warnings and pleas from the entire world. People of Russia did not try to stop Putin from the inside, too few went to the streets to prevent the war from starting. They did not do enough to protest against the illegal annexation of Crimea and the creation of the 'republics' in 2014. Most services were up until the day the war started, people could share information freely, they could use the word 'war' and 'peace' without risk of being arrested. Yet that did not help. In fact, the power in Russia is known to exploit the unlimited access to world Internet to spread out misinformation, get involved in hacking political campaigns in other countries, kremlin bots, ransomware gangs, etc. Due to this war, Russians are no longer considered trustworthy partners in politics, business, sports, science, arts, etc, so companies choose not to be associated with Russia because that hurts their business in other countries around the world. I mean, to the world Putin is Hitler now. Would you agree to Hitler keeping all his international privileges while he was invading other countries ? Businesses have to do what they have to do. Sadly that means that those 22% percent of Russians who oppose the war will have to endure the full impact of the world's emotional reaction to what the majority of Russians allowed to happen (and currently support).

sam_lowry_ 5y ago
> The Internet was totally open for Russians until 2 weeks ago. It was not. Roskomsvoboda was created to track blocking lists in 2012. It's been 10 years since internet started to be blocked in Russia.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  It was totally open from the side of the rest of the world. Like 99% open even from the inside. You are pecking on a branch, but the argument you reply to speaks about the forest.
EugeneOZ 5y ago
Even the most ideological putinists will lose the battle to their refrigerators soon - because of economic sanctions. It will lead them to the streets. And at this moment they'll look for a leader, for the truth, for the information and secure communications (free of censorship). This statement is not about lifting the economic sanctions, it's only about Internet access.

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jolmg 5y ago

Kind of wish the comments here would focus more on the need to fight the Russian propaganda. The point on how isolating the Russians helps the propaganda seems like the most important take-away. Instead comments seem to focus on how Russians deserve punishment, but how productive is this type of punishment? I would think it's an important goal to turn the Russians against Putin.

ardit33 5y ago
'Isolating Russia' -- Didn't they just ban FB and Twitter there? Aren't they cutting off their own internet as well? How is this the west doing? The west is not isolating them, just they are self isolating. All independent media had to shut down there.
- jolmg 5y ago
  > The west is not isolating them, just they are self isolating. Western services are also cutting them off. I get the sense that's helping Putin. An example: > Namecheap: Russia Service Termination https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30504812 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30504812 Maybe a DNS service is not the best example, but I feel like it's not the only service that I've seen do this. EDIT: Better example: > Internet backbone provider shuts off service in Russia https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/5/22962822/internet-backbone-provider-cogent-shuts-off-service-russia https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/5/22962822/internet-backbone...
  - ardit33 5y ago
    And your point is? They can use their own services, nobody wants to prevent that. But guess what? Putin doesn't like its citizen's to be able to read outside sources and is shutting things outside access himself. Even BBC has to restart using AM radio for its russian services (not done since the Cold War). Stop 'victim playing' and blaming the west, when you should be blaming your leader for the massive censorship going on in Russia right now.
    - 5y ago

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Animats 5y ago

Keeping ordinary Russians connected to the outside world is a win for all sides. Every news outlet in Russia that wasn't totally state controlled has been shut down. Rain TV was the last to go.

jacquesm 5y ago
There is a downside to this too: Russian propaganda is aimed abroad as well, and it is surprisingly effective in spite of us having access to alternative news sources. Their talking points and quotes show up all over the internet, including on HN, with alarming regularity.
- DenisM 5y ago
  A well funded troll farm will find a way to connect to the western internet. A poorly funded dissident will not.

xdennis 5y ago

> so-called "special operation" in Ukraine You can't take them seriously when they parrot the Kremlin's language. They only use "so-called" to avoid calling it what it is: a war of conquest. Putin explicitly said he wants Crimea and Donbas.

flyinglizard 5y ago
Russians can be heavily penalized by calling this anything other than the Kremlin’s official line.
- diego_moita 5y ago
  The (Russian) author lives in Barcelona, Spain. What penalty would he receive? [1] https://stackoverflow.com/cv/oz https://stackoverflow.com/cv/oz
  - EugeneOZ 5y ago
    I am not the author of the statement. So I do call it war: https://twitter.com/eugeniyoz/status/1496855352310222849 https://twitter.com/eugeniyoz/status/1496855352310222849
  - kreeben 5y ago
    Imprisonment of his relatives in Russia. This is not unheard of.
    - usrusr 5y ago
      I'd say that for this level of formality, it might very well be (completely unheard of). For authors feverishly calling their countrymen at home to rise up, sure, but for something like this? Would be a waste of prison food.
brimble 5y ago
I'm pretty sure "so-called" and scare quotes were supposed to communicate in bright flashing lights that they don't think the label is accurate.

deleted 5y ago

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viktorcode 5y ago

TL;DR Cogent did what Putin was doing for the last decade: destroying free internet in Russia.

birdyrooster 5y ago

What a joke. This is troll bait intended to start a flame war.

9214 5y ago
What an interesting case of self-describing sentence!
- butthe88 5y ago
  They’ve had the open internet in Russia for a while and yet they’re still committed to dear leader, as witnessed by Russians lack of effort to depose him. This statement should really target Russia for the same thing, so yeah it’s troll bait. It’s propaganda to instigate “ooh the poor Russian victims of their own indifference.” discourse. We can see in this thread it worked. Circle around logical propositions all you want, theorizing has little value when the behavior is concrete.
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  Precisely the issue with the post, it encourages my behavior.

egze 5y ago

Quite a lot of condemning, demanding and calling for actions from the western society. Yet, not once was the word "war" mentioned. Not once were the actions of the Russian government and Putin condemned. How about you - Roskomsvoboda focus your energy on stopping the war, so Ukrainians can also enjoy the benefits of new technologies?

EugeneOZ 5y ago
Are you aware that there is a law (published a few days ago) and people living in Russia can be sentenced to 15 years in prison for calling it war?

ccbccccbbcccbb 5y ago

I'll just leave it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_anti-war_protests_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_anti-war_protests_in_Russ...

danbruc 5y ago

What about not shutting down the internet but replying to ten percent of all requests with information and images about the war instead of the requested page?

poxrud 5y ago

"We strongly condemn the actions of governments and the private sector, represented by the owners of websites, social networks, online platforms and marketplaces who resort to arbitrarily blocking accounts of or restricting access to users from Russia and arbitrary labeling of the content of Russian users." It's hard to take them seriously when they don't even condemn the war crimes of their own government.

sega_sai 5y ago

I think it is a very important point. I perfectly well understand (and share) the anger against Russia, and desire to use sanctions and withdrawal of companies/services as a tool to reduce the quality of life in Russia and through that (hopefully) affect the policies of the Russian state/change the government. One can argue whether they will be effective, but it is a tool that is used as an alternative to pure war, and so I'd argue it is better. But in the same time, I certainly recommend for every company to think a little bit whether their withdrawal is going to make the regime life easier or harder. I would think that withdrawal of Cogent was counterproductive. Similarly I think the stopping of Mastercard/Visa (effective immediately) mostly hurt people who just recently left russia under the threat to their lives (like independent journalists). All that said, it's hard to ask companies to make a careful analysis about the consequences of their actions on Russian regime as that's not their job. So for sure there will be unintended consequences like hurting some people who were fighting the regime, and consequences helping Russia. I just hope the companies will try to minimise those and think a little before following the current pressure to disassociate from Russia.

Schiendelman 5y ago
It’s intentional to hurt Russian citizens economically. It’s up to them to decide to form a government that doesn’t invade others. Aside from war, this is the only thing the West can do to stop this insane aggression.
- sega_sai 5y ago
  Yes, that is okay with me and understandable. It's just if the West says, lets cut off the Internet from Russia, I think that will just help the Russian government, so therefore it's not a good idea in my book.
  - mikob 5y ago
    If it would help them, they would've done it themselves. They've already taken out Twitter and Facebook without any hesitation.

diego_moita 5y ago

If western internet were that dangerous to the Russian Regime they'd already have it blocked. They already did it with FB and other sites. This "Statement" looks a lot like a false flag.

mmaunder 5y ago

I don’t think you can entirely separate the accountability of a government from the accountability of its people. Take Apartheid South Africa for example: Tremendous external pressure was applied on South Africa which affected its people. I was one of them. This created the impetus for internal change and resulted in, first a referendum to determine if South Africa would become a democracy- and then the actual transformation. The world must continue to apply pressure on the whole of Russia. It sucks for the Russian people. Trust me, I get it.

bufferoverflow 5y ago
Look at the polls. Russian people support this war. They deserve everything that's happening to them in retaliation.
- jamesakirk 5y ago
  Which polls? Please be specific. Are the polling methods and results beyond the influence of Russian State? Further, even if they are correct, to what extent is their response based on incorrect or insufficient information (which I strongly suspect)?
  - altmind 5y ago
    https://twitter.com/alexey_minyaylo/status/1500789953042821122 https://twitter.com/alexey_minyaylo/status/15007899530428211... 1807 polled in RU, 59% said they support the russian invasion https://www.dorussianswantwar.com/ https://www.dorussianswantwar.com/
    - fulafel 5y ago
      Media controls are difficult there, but still, this is just a guy on the internet who does his own polling apparently (both links about same). Would be good to have more data.
- EB-Barrington 5y ago
  This is hard for many people to accept. The Russian people guilty. If we believe in democracy, then accept that it's the majority will of the Russian people to support Putin's decision to send forces to: - bomb hospitals - kill children - rape women - massacre civilians - destroy homes - bomb a holocaust memorial site - etc etc etc Russia will not recover from this in any of our lifetimes. When the true scale of this terror inflicted upon Ukraine is known by the world, frankly, everyone will be shocked beyond belief. Hello from Kyiv

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baggioronaldo 5y ago

Sanctions against Russia should focus on stopping the war, and not merely on punishing Russians. I think that cutting off internet in Russia punishes Russia, but doesn't do anything towards stopping the war. On the contrary, eliminating internet will further cut off Russians from the truth, resulting in further brainwashing of Russian population, more support for Putin, and ultimately more Ukrainian deaths.

brimble 5y ago
Does the global Internet, or does it not, provide immense value to an economy? If it does, then of course we should consider cutting them off. If not, then IDK why we're all so well-paid. I think the "we could use it to counter propaganda" angle is weak. If Russia thought that might work, they would have already cut it off.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I think the "we could use it to counter propaganda" angle is weak. If Russia thought that might work, they would have already cut it off. More to the point, Russia does think that might work, and has been selectively cutting off the parts that it sees as enabling that. What's left is what the Russian government sees as useful for themselves.
  - brimble 5y ago
    Yes, that's a good point. They've shown themselves entirely willing to cut out the parts that they think do them more harm than good. What remains is the part they think is net-beneficial, so unless we think they are very wrong about that it may well be sensible to cut off their access completely, to the extent we are able.
    - baggioronaldo 5y ago
      AFAIK, Russia did not yet turn off YouTube because many millions of Russians use YouTube for entertainment purposes (not for politics) and turning YouTube off would piss off that huge part of the population. It would be more convenient to have YouTube turn itself off, since in that case those millions of Russians would be pissed off at YouTube & USA (instead of being pissed at the Russian government)

pacific_citizen 5y ago

Hi from Moscow. Right now Putin spend billion dollars from oil and gas to sponsor war and inner forces which harshly destroy any protests. The only effective sanctions *against* Putin – is to cut down buying gas and oil. But Europe and other countries resist to do so. Yeah, it may sounds promising to someone that cutting Russian off the Internet will help protests, but it's not. Regime is still incredibly rich and could sponsor any aggressive activity. First thing that West must do – to make Putin's poor. And then Russians could resist against him. Right now he has multi billions army and law against unarmed citizens.

Imnimo 5y ago

I'm not sure I buy the argument that this will provide "cover" to the Russian government to isolate the country from the global internet. What cover do they need? If we are to believe that the Russian people are powerless to stop the invasion of Ukraine, then wouldn't they be equally powerless to stop their government from disconnecting them from the internet, with or without cover?

gerdesj 5y ago

I started out deploying the righteous spear of whatevs but I think I need some more context here. What is Roskomsvoboba?

altmind 5y ago
quote: Roskomsvoboda is a Russian non-governmental organization that supports open self-regulatory networks and protection of digital rights of Internet users. The organization aims to counteract censorship on the Internet and to popularize the ideas of freedom of information and self-regulation.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago

We should be beaming our own propaganda into Russia in massive quantities. Maybe the massive sanctions are a pretext to this: drop the sanctions and let goods and services flood back in. Only the goods and services will be stuffed full of war images and demoralizing content.