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In the bigger context, we always did and still do. Even going so far to actively support some of them and not just tolerate. Especially when they were supposed

In the bigger context, we always did and still do. Even going so far to actively support some of them and not just tolerate. Especially when they were supposed to keep "communists" in check. Just some examples. Those lists are for the US but of course by no means is it exclusive to the US. - https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/02/americas-most-awkward-allies-103889/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/02/americas-mos... (linked for the list, not for "Obama" - obviously it is independent of who is president) - https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_s... - https://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/ https://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_ba... And not to forget - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... It's not exclusive to the US of course, it was just easier to find links quickly. Here's an example with France: - https://www.dw.com/en/french-support-for-chad-dictator-makes-eu-uneasy/a-3121695 https://www.dw.com/en/french-support-for-chad-dictator-makes... - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-14/france-s-forbearance-for-military-strongmen-in-africa-will-embarrass-macron https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-14/france...

tablespoon 5y ago
> In the bigger context, we always did and still do. Even going so far to actively support some of them and not just tolerate. Especially when they were supposed to keep "communists" in check. And the West may need get more comfortable with doing that, since we've seen some of the consequences. IMHO, sanctions against Belarus were probably a significant contributing factor to this war (i.e. they put Belarus in a position to be dominated by Putin, who took full advantage to support/strengthen his invasion of Ukraine). I wonder if some middle ground is tenable (e.g. make a deal with a dictator that he will get full support for life, as long as he agrees his successor will be a properly democratic government).
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  We like to blame the West for the actions of dictators, but I wonder if a saner reading is that these things are generally inevitable. We wanted to "westernize" China by way of trade, and we probably succeeded to the extent that we could even if China remains communist. We sanctioned Belarus which probably would have become a dictatorship anyway. Similarly, I suspect your proposal to "make a deal with a dictator" will just result in that dictator declining his commitment on his deathbed (what does he have to lose? He's already gotten his lifelong dictatorship side of the deal). Ultimately, democracy isn't just a way of organizing politically, it requires a culture that values/expects/demands democracy. If people don't value or demand democracy, then perhaps no amount of sanctions or toppling dictators is going to result in a reasonably democratic government, but conversely sanctions and toppling dictators probably isn't worsening the democratic prospect either (contrary to anti-Western propaganda and criticism).
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tablespoon 5y ago

> In the bigger context, we always did and still do. Even going so far to actively support some of them and not just tolerate. Especially when they were supposed to keep "communists" in check. And the West may need get more comfortable with doing that, since we've seen some of the consequences. IMHO, sanctions against Belarus were probably a significant contributing factor to this war (i.e. they put Belarus in a position to be dominated by Putin, who took full advantage to support/strengthen his invasion of Ukraine). I wonder if some middle ground is tenable (e.g. make a deal with a dictator that he will get full support for life, as long as he agrees his successor will be a properly democratic government).

throwaway894345 5y ago
We like to blame the West for the actions of dictators, but I wonder if a saner reading is that these things are generally inevitable. We wanted to "westernize" China by way of trade, and we probably succeeded to the extent that we could even if China remains communist. We sanctioned Belarus which probably would have become a dictatorship anyway. Similarly, I suspect your proposal to "make a deal with a dictator" will just result in that dictator declining his commitment on his deathbed (what does he have to lose? He's already gotten his lifelong dictatorship side of the deal). Ultimately, democracy isn't just a way of organizing politically, it requires a culture that values/expects/demands democracy. If people don't value or demand democracy, then perhaps no amount of sanctions or toppling dictators is going to result in a reasonably democratic government, but conversely sanctions and toppling dictators probably isn't worsening the democratic prospect either (contrary to anti-Western propaganda and criticism).

deleted 5y ago

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