14 ms·

My next main browser: a review of Orion

180 points by vimy 5y ago

rishav_sharan 5y ago
are there any web browsers out there which are created from scratch? ie not based on chromium, or webkit but every single component used in the browser was created for it? Bonus points, if that browser is actually usable and not just a toy/academic exercise.
- mech422 5y ago
  Firefox? Konqueror seems to still support the KHTML renderer - not sure how well that works though. Opera moved to webkit. I used to use lynx/links on the terminal.
  - pantulis 5y ago
    But these are already existing engines. I believe the engineering effort to build a rendering engine from scratch makes it very unlikely we will see another engine.
- freediver 5y ago
  This one is probably the closest you can get outside of mainstream web rendering engine choices: https://www.ekioh.com https://www.ekioh.com (it does borrow a javascript library though, so not completely from scratch)
howolduis 5y ago
would be useful to have some images in the post
- baronofcheese 5y ago
  I had the exact same sentiment. Author describes a lot of features with words, but would have really been great if they added some images of what they are describing for better visualization of it.
  - freediver 5y ago
    There are some screenshots in another recent review at https://tedium.co/2022/01/19/orion-web-browser-macos-kagi-profile/ https://tedium.co/2022/01/19/orion-web-browser-macos-kagi-pr...
- suby 5y ago
  See their website, https://browser.kagi.com/ https://browser.kagi.com/, linked in the article.
chrysoprace 5y ago
Here's the direct link to the browser's site: https://browser.kagi.com/ https://browser.kagi.com/ Makes claims about being faster and more leightweight than Chrome or Firefox. Looks interesting, but seems to be another MacOS and iOS exclusive app, so I won't be able to use it. It's a shame that the developer chose native over cross-platform and the FAQ doesn't mention any plans to support other platforms.
- spiderice 5y ago
  > It's a shame that the developer chose native over cross-platform As I'm sure the developers will read these comments, not it isn't. Thank you for choosing to go native. There are dozens of other non-native, cross-platform browsers. Why would we need another one?
  - jonpurdy 5y ago
    Precisely. I seek out native Mac apps and actively avoid cross-platform junk, since it is slower and more bloated, and doesn’t match the native UI (though Apple itself breaks its own conventions these days). So this is a major selling feature!
- j-james 5y ago
  The founder has expressed interest in developing a Windows and Linux version once they're out of beta and "once they can afford to hire 20 more engineers". Linux would probably come first: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28803789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28803789 I think focusing on macOS first is a good move. macOS users are currently stuck between a lagging-behind-standards Safari and a memory-consuming Chrome (not sure how Firefox performs), and there is more of a market for paid software (which is Kagi's business model).
kmonsen 5y ago
For me a browser needs to be available on all my devices. Android, iOS, Mac, windows and Linux. And it needs to sync bookmarks, history and passwords across all of those. Anything less and I go back to chrome or Firefox. Extra features just does not seem worth losing this when they are both excellent browsers already.
- nyanpasu64 5y ago
  I partly agree with you. To me, bookmark sync is essential (I didn't look into options), history sync isn't as important, and password sync is essential (Firefox is a second-class password manager on Chrome or Windows/Linux or Android, and BitWarden is a second-class password manager on the Web and not perfect on Android either).
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Sure I agree. Password is a strong first, bookmarks is a second but still very essential and history a fairly distant third. But Firefox and Chrome both have these so I don't feel like downgrading to not having them. BTW, I would like to have live sessions where I can have the same tab session open on a second computer/phone, or connect to different tab sessions from different computers. I don't think anyone currently offers this.
- leodriesch 5y ago
  I used to search for that browser too, now I just use external tools for bookmarks (Pocket and Raindrop.io) and password managing (1Password). Switching between Safari on mobile and Firefox on macOS and Windows is fine for me this way.
- mystickphoenix 5y ago
  I have that issue as well and end up using xBrowserSync to keep bookmarks synced between Chrome (Android) and Firefox (MacOS and Windows). Maybe worth a shot. I'm on the waitlist for Orion so I don't know if it works on Orion yet, fingers crossed!
skywal_l 5y ago
Webkit based browser for MacOS, for those wondering.
ketzo 5y ago
I appreciate that people really need cross-platform functionality, but given that their own website says that the browser is currently in Beta, I think it’s fair to try and restrict criticism to the actual product as it currently is. Personally, I’ve been using Kagi Search (the same company’s search engine, also in beta) for about a week, and have had a great experience.
- version_five 5y ago
  I'm very happy with kagi search and gave switched over too. It does rely in google (and others) but seems to retain the "good" aspects of google search without all the crap (ads) and nagging. And by virtue of it being smaller, I don't care as much about them presumably harvesting as much data as possible from me. It will be interesting to see how they scale.
  - Kbelicius 5y ago
    Considering that once it is out of beta kagi search will be a paid service I hope they don't harvest any data. Don't see a point in paying if they do.
    - ketzo 5y ago
      Well, I understand that on some level, a search engine only gets better by utilizing the data in its searches. Sharing data, or using it for purposes other than improving search, sure, that’s a problem. But I think it’s reasonable to say that they gotta learn something from their users.
tgv 5y ago
I'm also interested in new browsers. I mainly use Firefox, and have been using it since its Navigator days (although for a long period I used a derived version for OSX, Camino), and I use Chromium and Safari when I have too. A new browser is welcome for multiple reasons. But the article is very light on details, such as: what features does/doesn't Orion's engine support? It's fast, but the author doesn't even mention if Orion uses Google Safe Browsing or an alternative (which could be why Safari briefly lingers). As it turns out, Orion is webkit based. That would explain how there can be an iOS version in the works. That seriously reduces my interest. I've signed up, because you never know, but Orion is not an undertaking comparable to Chrome, Safari or Firefox, that will add a much needed breath of fresh air/diversity to the browser landscape.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  > the author doesn't even mention if Orion uses Google Safe Browsing or an alternative (which could be why Safari briefly lingers). Aside: do you keep Safe Browsing on? I always turn it off, as I'm pretty wise to phishing / download buttons etc. I don't know how much of a performance increase there is, but I'm sure I've saved quite a few seconds from not having it on.
  - tgv 5y ago
    I have it on, but I can only remember one time it warned me, and that was when I knowingly opened a potentially malicious page (after a colleague had clicked a suspicious email). I'm always doubting about turning it off: Google is not your friend. But I'm not even sure how it works. I did read that Apple proxies it on iOS, so I suppose Firefox does expose part of the URL and your IP address.
- Cannabat 5y ago
  Orion uses the latest webkit release so it's usually ahead of Safari. The team is working to implement the web extensions API. It's not perfect yet but I use a number of extensions with no problems (Bitwarden, Dark Reader, Request Control, Sponsor Block) and a couple with minor issues (Reddit Enhancement Suite, Mate Translate). Many extensions are not functional at the moment, owing to the incomplete extension API implementation, but the progress so far is very encouraging. I also use Dark Reader on the iOS app which is pretty cool (haven't tried any other extensions on iOS).
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
The author says that this new browser is very similar to Safari, as if it is a good thing. Maybe it's just me, but to me Safari is a horrible, terrible, very user hostile browser that is only used once to dowload Firefox. And on mobile it is even worse. So having another browser that feels like Safari is a big instant NO in my book.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  You had me until Firefox.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    There is no alternative for people who care about preserving open web and standards.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > but to me Safari is a horrible, terrible, very user hostile browser Yo mean, a fast, energy-efficient, user-friendly browser (that I personally have been using as my main browser for the bast 13 years).
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    It might be fast and energy-efficient, it is hard to measure in everyday life, but its horrible interface is driving me nuts, especially on mobile.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      Its interface is nearly indistinguishable from any other browser (all browsers have converged on a more-or-less the same interface). Can't say about mobile though, I don't think I've ever used any other browser on mobile (well, except Opera almost 15 years ago)
- imbnwa 5y ago
  Stable WebKit (whats on iOS 15 and Monterrey) is breaking <canvas> with its recent GPU Acceleration flag toggled on, look at Issues or boards for any browser game engine based on <canvas> or the Apple Developer forum. I can't believe they didn't test that flag sufficiently like this.
yewenjie 5y ago
> Take Screenshot of the Entire Page is something I’ve wanted in a browser Firefox natively supports this. > Edit Text on Page is very useful to me as a translator. `document.designMode = "on"` in the console in any browser.
- motform 5y ago
  Full page screenshots are actually supported by FF, Chrome and Safari (even on mobile). For some reason, the feature is always hidden in some absurd place https://www.idownloadblog.com/2021/04/08/capture-full-page-screenshots-safari-firefox-chrome-mac/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2021/04/08/capture-full-page-s...
  - dlccyes 5y ago
    only Firefox let you decide what exact area you want to screenshot tho (not limited to full page)
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      MS Edge "Web Capture" gives you the option to screenshot the full page or select an area.
    - est 5y ago
      Chrome: Open DevTools (F12 or sth), go to page, select the HTML node, right click, take screenshot.
- sprucevoid 5y ago
  I wish Firefox would natively let us silently take full page screenshots from a keyboard shortcut. It is (currently) a three click operation, but they seem to change the steps and graphics for it every year or so.
  - rpadovani 5y ago
    CTRL+SHIFT+s does the trick for me, on Linux. I don't remember to have enabled it explicitly, so probably it works out of the box
ig0r0 5y ago
Direct download without waiting and signing up: https://browser.kagi.com/downloads/Orion.dmg https://browser.kagi.com/downloads/Orion.dmg
- est 5y ago
  The size is so small. Does it use system Webkit or just a launcher/downloader? Update: definitely a downloader. Need extra 111MB to install.
onion2k 5y ago
This is a bit off topic I guess, but I don't think the goal of fixing a slow Web can be achieved by building a faster Web browser. Developers will build and test (or not test) things on their powerful Macbooks, and usually ship things that aren't noticeably slow for them, then a user with a $300 Windows laptop from Walmart will struggle to click on things. This is the nature of web dev. Increasing the speed of the browser just means web devs will accept that code is fast enough when they use it, regardless of whether or not its fast enough when a user on a less powerful machine uses it. Essentially, web pages will always expand to fill the available resources of the dev's machine and if you use their code on a less powerful computer you're out of luck. If we want a faster web we need to get web devs to test on slower browsers and more realistic target devices. (I can actually think of an alternative solution that browser vendors could do ... Browsers could just display a blank screen whenever a web site falls below 60fps. Websites would get a lot faster pretty quickly if Chrome did that.) EDIT: Actually... This is possible. Chrome should display a blank screen when a website falls below 60fps when devtools is open. That would have no impact on users, but would push web developers to fix their slow pages. I'm genuinely tempted to find the time to make a PR...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dotancohen 5y ago
  I'll make the PR if you don't have the time. It's a great feature and aligns perfectly with Chrome's (original, stated) reason to exist: to make the web better.
- mynameismon 5y ago
  Another trick to deal with heavy web requests is artificially limiting bandwidth. By simulating a slow 3G connection using devtools (yes, its a feature!), developers should see how much time does it take to load. Personally, I would love to see the slow 3G speed the default
  - onion2k 5y ago
    I think it would be great if devtools had a very prominent and easy to enable "test mode" that switched on a few settings like network and CPU throttling. It should be a top level tab like Elements and Recorder.
bumblebritches5 5y ago
captainmuon 5y ago
I just got a new MacBook after using Windows, and am trying to do things the "Mac" way, before I attempt to customize it too much. I kinda like Safari, although it has weird bugs (e.g.: if you use tab groups, it will randomly navigate back and forth). So I like the idea of a better version of Safari. The killer feature is the support of WebExtensions (ad blocker!) One thing that is really important to me is bookmark sync. It would be really great if you could implement Firefox sync (the source is available, I'm not sure if there are license problems in using it from a third party browser. In any case, if your extension model is powerful enough, somebody could write an open source extension to do it). This is the one feature for which I could imagine buying a pro version. Another thing that I think would be cool is a tab filter. Press a hotkey, get a list of all tabs. Then press "hacker" and it highlights all tabs with hacker(news), and ⌘-w to close them. Or you could move all tabs with "office" to a new window. Or maybe you find a clever UI to select and close all old, not recently used tabs. This would be great to clean up all the old tabs that accumulate.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > I just got a new MacBook after using Windows, and am trying to do things the "Mac" way > Press a hotkey, get a list of all tabs. I recently tried a Mac for six months, coming from KDE on Debian-based systems. I also tried to do things the Mac way. I hate to break it to you, and am really trying to not be condescending, but despite Mac's famed usability a hotkey and then filter is too "hacker" to be "the Mac way". The Mac way is one click to get to things, even if that click generates dozens of possible things to get to. Filtering, completion, etc feel like a Linux accent on Mac (I don't know about Windows, haven't used it in two decades). You probably already know that e.g. Tridactyl offers such features in Firefox but I get trying to use a Mac browser. If you're jumping into the Mac Way, go all the way. Maybe it is better, I don't know, but sticking to your old ideas of what a workflow should be will just make the Mac frustrating.
  - swiftcoder 5y ago
    > despite Mac's famed usability a hotkey and then filter is too "hacker" to be "the Mac way". The Mac way is one click to get to things, even if that click generates dozens of possible things to get to. Filtering, completion, etc feel like a Linux accent on Mac The ubiquity of spotlight (for example, the global CMD-space hotkey) throughout Mac OS would seem to belie that view
andrea76 5y ago
I would like to have a better "Find Text in Page", that darkens the page and not only highlights the found text. I remember that once upon a time Opera did this... can we do this with Firefox or Chrome?
- oneeyedpigeon 5y ago
  More intelligent search would be a huge bonus. I frequently search for text and it turns out that it's hidden on the page, but there's no indication of that in the search results, so it manifests as just a weird 'phantom' hit I have to skip past.
OrlandoHakim 5y ago
As a product manager I just want to say how impressed I am about Orion’s decision to not do any form of in-app tracking and instead to actively solicit and act on user feedback. This kind of decision takes courage in this day and age of detailed usage analytics. I might try it out in my own projects.
- imbnwa 5y ago
  As a Beta user, they intend on selling browser licenses IIRC
  - billbrown 5y ago
    I think what the comment you're replying to meant was that the product team isn't capturing and reviewing user activity to figure out what the user's are doing or wanting.
    - kwonkicker 5y ago
      I think what the comment you are replying to means is that priorities can change, even more so if there is a change of ownership in the horizon.
      - imbnwa 5y ago
        See my sibling comment to yours for clarification on my mistake, but to respond I don't think Vlad intends on selling the browser since he needs it to promote his search engine, Kagi Search. Doesn't completely mitigate the risk but I think enough since its now tablestakes in the search engine space to offer your own browser, Brave is the same way.
    - imbnwa 5y ago
      Yeah, I misread grandparent and thought they were talking about forgoing profit from telemetry, e.g. Google Chrome
      - 5y ago
d3nj4l 5y ago
Idk if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but a browser is one of those things where I simply am not comfortable trying out options that aren't big or well known. At this point, the browser is essentially a window into my entire life, and I do things like check my bank balance on it. While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. So trying out a new, closed source browser - even if it is as great as everyone makes it seem - is a bit too much for me.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Did you mean to say "I can be reasonably certain they are looking into what I'm doing"?
  - d3nj4l 5y ago
    That's funny, but Google has extremely powerful incentives to not snoop on me while I check my bank balance.
    - hansel_der 5y ago
      like what?
      - d3nj4l 5y ago
        Chrome's entire reason for existing is that Google wants control over the client, so they can control the capabilities of the web. If they are snooping on the data of webpages or what you type, they will lose that. Also the fact that millions of eyeballs are on it, including security researchers who would be more than happy to report it.
        ipaddr 5y ago
        They are doing it now. Maybe this comment needs to go back to 2011 when no one knew better.
        5y ago
gnicholas 5y ago
> Orion supports both Chrome and Firefox extensions Wow, this sounds amazing! from a reddit thread: [1] > Overall really snappy, but almost all of my Chrome extensions didn’t work properly, except for UBlock Origin which was the headlining feature on their website. That's not good. I guess I'll download and see if my preferred extensions work with it. Other redditors didn't have issues with their extensions (though noted it was "hella buggy"). UPDATE: It does seem snappy (not much faster than Brave, if at all), but the first two extensions I tried didn't work great. Tree Style Tabs (Firefox addon) only appears on the right side of the window, and I can't find a way to move it to the left. BeeLine Reader (Chrome extension, I am the creator) runs fine, but the settings panel shows all the tabs at once, creating a very wide mess of settings. 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/r9mark/did_anyone_try_orion_browser_on_mac_os/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/r9mark/did_anyone_tr...
- d3nj4l 5y ago
  I second the bugginess - I gave it a spin (despite my paranoia...) and a lot of my favourite ff extensions don't work well, if at all. Chrome extensions fare better. I'm really tempted by the idea of a way more battery efficient browser that can still use ff extensions, but this isn't it (yet).
  - freediver 5y ago
    Extension support in Orion is still experimental and product is in beta. The way to make it better is keep giving it a spin and contributing feedback to orionfeedback.org (a big ask I know!)
- Cannabat 5y ago
  A significant chunk of the web extension API is not yet implemented so some extensions do not work. But having my bug reports for extension issues addressed is very encouraging, as are my interactions with the team creating Orion. I think they will make it to the finish line.
- juliusgeo 5y ago
  Orion supports tree style tabs natively (Prefs->Appearance->Show tabs: On the Side).
pantulis 5y ago
I've been trying Orion these days. It's pretty awesome although there are some rough edges. The most annoying quirk is using my Airpods Pro with Google Meet, for some reason the mic input does not always get recognized (. This behaviour also happens from time to time in Safari so this may be not an Orion issue. Looking at the orionfeedback.org, I'd say that their most important challenge now is deciding what not to do.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  I have been experiencing this problem consistently with Safari for months, I don't think it's Orion-specific.
  - pantulis 5y ago
    One thing that I've noticed is that when running Orion in the macOS Control Center appears a new widget called "Mic Mode", which I've never seen while running Safari. But yes I am with you, I feel that this issue is not Orion-specific. But surely this thwarts my adoption efforts ;)
- freediver 5y ago
  There was a an update yesterday (0.99.113 beta) - does the issue persist after it?
dlccyes 5y ago
only Firefox let you decide what exact area you want to screenshot tho (not limited to full page)
rank0 5y ago
I’ve been using the beta for both iOS and macOS and tbh it’s just “meh”. It’s still in beta and as such has quite a few bugs. I’ve drifted back to FF. Although I gotta say I love Kagi search. I hope there’s a way to use the service TRULY anonymously though, because a paid service requires an auth token. If they provide a hidden service, a useful api, a cli tool, and a way to pay/use anonymously I’ll gladly pay a hefty annual/monthly subscription.
- shafyy 5y ago
  I've also been trying Kagi search these past days and I'm impressed by the search results and the performance. Will keep using it for the time being.
- freediver 5y ago
  Is it meh as a beta product or meh compared to existing mainstream browsers?
  - rank0 5y ago
    It’s meh compared to existing mainstream browsers but being in beta still I don’t fault the project. The support for standard web extensions is incomplete and even ublock origin doesn’t work properly. Hopefully they can iron out the kinks of translating the standard web apis to WebKit.
egberts1 5y ago
just fired up Onion iOS through my own Zeek/Suricata/Snort monitoring gateway: no web browsing telemetry. Loving it.
egberts1 5y ago
I noticed that iCloud is used to store the password but it is not the seamless integration with Firefox password storage. And that is ok with me.
throwaway81523 5y ago
The problem now is the web, and browsers can no longer fix it without VERY wide adoption of the fixes, and that isn't happening. So any attempts to resist result in being unable to render the web as it exists out there. One can say browsers created the problem by letting the web get this way, but it is very hard to turn back now that we are here. It will only get worse.
Shadonototra 5y ago
It's not out and it is your main already? The amount of manipulation and propaganda is crazy these days Slow down!
- pantulis 5y ago
  Well, I've been trying Orion these last weeks. I've seen some issues related to Google Meet (but they are probably due to Webkit). Apart from that, Orion browser seems stable enough to be a main browser.
sdbillin 5y ago
What the world doesn't need is another webkit based browser.
369548684892826 5y ago
In case it saves anyone else the time I spent reading this before discovering it's for Mac only (for now): It's only available for Mac.
libeclipse 5y ago
No mention of security
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
endemic 5y ago
I just requested access earlier this week; for work, I have to use a browser that uses the host's certificate store, and am not enthused to use Chrome or Edge. Safari is OK (not a fan of the UI), but no ad blocking is the worst.
_8j50 5y ago
I've tried it. The few bugs are expected for being so new but memory usage is the big issue for me. If you ask me what an ideal browser in 2022 is, it would essentially be a VM hypervisor with UI made for browsing. I would have paid for a browser that resurrected Servo or something but as much as I like Kagi from the same company, I just didn't see enough differentiator for Orion compared to say Brave.

180 points by vimy 5y ago

are there any web browsers out there which are created from scratch? ie not based on chromium, or webkit but every single component used in the browser was created for it? Bonus points, if that browser is actually usable and not just a toy/academic exercise.

mech422 5y ago
Firefox? Konqueror seems to still support the KHTML renderer - not sure how well that works though. Opera moved to webkit. I used to use lynx/links on the terminal.
- pantulis 5y ago
  But these are already existing engines. I believe the engineering effort to build a rendering engine from scratch makes it very unlikely we will see another engine.
freediver 5y ago
This one is probably the closest you can get outside of mainstream web rendering engine choices: https://www.ekioh.com https://www.ekioh.com (it does borrow a javascript library though, so not completely from scratch)

howolduis 5y ago

would be useful to have some images in the post

baronofcheese 5y ago
I had the exact same sentiment. Author describes a lot of features with words, but would have really been great if they added some images of what they are describing for better visualization of it.
- freediver 5y ago
  There are some screenshots in another recent review at https://tedium.co/2022/01/19/orion-web-browser-macos-kagi-profile/ https://tedium.co/2022/01/19/orion-web-browser-macos-kagi-pr...
suby 5y ago
See their website, https://browser.kagi.com/ https://browser.kagi.com/, linked in the article.

chrysoprace 5y ago

Here's the direct link to the browser's site: https://browser.kagi.com/ https://browser.kagi.com/ Makes claims about being faster and more leightweight than Chrome or Firefox. Looks interesting, but seems to be another MacOS and iOS exclusive app, so I won't be able to use it. It's a shame that the developer chose native over cross-platform and the FAQ doesn't mention any plans to support other platforms.

spiderice 5y ago
> It's a shame that the developer chose native over cross-platform As I'm sure the developers will read these comments, not it isn't. Thank you for choosing to go native. There are dozens of other non-native, cross-platform browsers. Why would we need another one?
- jonpurdy 5y ago
  Precisely. I seek out native Mac apps and actively avoid cross-platform junk, since it is slower and more bloated, and doesn’t match the native UI (though Apple itself breaks its own conventions these days). So this is a major selling feature!
j-james 5y ago
The founder has expressed interest in developing a Windows and Linux version once they're out of beta and "once they can afford to hire 20 more engineers". Linux would probably come first: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28803789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28803789 I think focusing on macOS first is a good move. macOS users are currently stuck between a lagging-behind-standards Safari and a memory-consuming Chrome (not sure how Firefox performs), and there is more of a market for paid software (which is Kagi's business model).

kmonsen 5y ago

For me a browser needs to be available on all my devices. Android, iOS, Mac, windows and Linux. And it needs to sync bookmarks, history and passwords across all of those. Anything less and I go back to chrome or Firefox. Extra features just does not seem worth losing this when they are both excellent browsers already.

nyanpasu64 5y ago
I partly agree with you. To me, bookmark sync is essential (I didn't look into options), history sync isn't as important, and password sync is essential (Firefox is a second-class password manager on Chrome or Windows/Linux or Android, and BitWarden is a second-class password manager on the Web and not perfect on Android either).
- kmonsen 5y ago
  Sure I agree. Password is a strong first, bookmarks is a second but still very essential and history a fairly distant third. But Firefox and Chrome both have these so I don't feel like downgrading to not having them. BTW, I would like to have live sessions where I can have the same tab session open on a second computer/phone, or connect to different tab sessions from different computers. I don't think anyone currently offers this.
leodriesch 5y ago
I used to search for that browser too, now I just use external tools for bookmarks (Pocket and Raindrop.io) and password managing (1Password). Switching between Safari on mobile and Firefox on macOS and Windows is fine for me this way.
mystickphoenix 5y ago
I have that issue as well and end up using xBrowserSync to keep bookmarks synced between Chrome (Android) and Firefox (MacOS and Windows). Maybe worth a shot. I'm on the waitlist for Orion so I don't know if it works on Orion yet, fingers crossed!

skywal_l 5y ago

Webkit based browser for MacOS, for those wondering.

ketzo 5y ago

I appreciate that people really need cross-platform functionality, but given that their own website says that the browser is currently in Beta, I think it’s fair to try and restrict criticism to the actual product as it currently is. Personally, I’ve been using Kagi Search (the same company’s search engine, also in beta) for about a week, and have had a great experience.

version_five 5y ago
I'm very happy with kagi search and gave switched over too. It does rely in google (and others) but seems to retain the "good" aspects of google search without all the crap (ads) and nagging. And by virtue of it being smaller, I don't care as much about them presumably harvesting as much data as possible from me. It will be interesting to see how they scale.
- Kbelicius 5y ago
  Considering that once it is out of beta kagi search will be a paid service I hope they don't harvest any data. Don't see a point in paying if they do.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    Well, I understand that on some level, a search engine only gets better by utilizing the data in its searches. Sharing data, or using it for purposes other than improving search, sure, that’s a problem. But I think it’s reasonable to say that they gotta learn something from their users.

tgv 5y ago

I'm also interested in new browsers. I mainly use Firefox, and have been using it since its Navigator days (although for a long period I used a derived version for OSX, Camino), and I use Chromium and Safari when I have too. A new browser is welcome for multiple reasons. But the article is very light on details, such as: what features does/doesn't Orion's engine support? It's fast, but the author doesn't even mention if Orion uses Google Safe Browsing or an alternative (which could be why Safari briefly lingers). As it turns out, Orion is webkit based. That would explain how there can be an iOS version in the works. That seriously reduces my interest. I've signed up, because you never know, but Orion is not an undertaking comparable to Chrome, Safari or Firefox, that will add a much needed breath of fresh air/diversity to the browser landscape.

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tentacleuno 5y ago
> the author doesn't even mention if Orion uses Google Safe Browsing or an alternative (which could be why Safari briefly lingers). Aside: do you keep Safe Browsing on? I always turn it off, as I'm pretty wise to phishing / download buttons etc. I don't know how much of a performance increase there is, but I'm sure I've saved quite a few seconds from not having it on.
- tgv 5y ago
  I have it on, but I can only remember one time it warned me, and that was when I knowingly opened a potentially malicious page (after a colleague had clicked a suspicious email). I'm always doubting about turning it off: Google is not your friend. But I'm not even sure how it works. I did read that Apple proxies it on iOS, so I suppose Firefox does expose part of the URL and your IP address.
Cannabat 5y ago
Orion uses the latest webkit release so it's usually ahead of Safari. The team is working to implement the web extensions API. It's not perfect yet but I use a number of extensions with no problems (Bitwarden, Dark Reader, Request Control, Sponsor Block) and a couple with minor issues (Reddit Enhancement Suite, Mate Translate). Many extensions are not functional at the moment, owing to the incomplete extension API implementation, but the progress so far is very encouraging. I also use Dark Reader on the iOS app which is pretty cool (haven't tried any other extensions on iOS).

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

The author says that this new browser is very similar to Safari, as if it is a good thing. Maybe it's just me, but to me Safari is a horrible, terrible, very user hostile browser that is only used once to dowload Firefox. And on mobile it is even worse. So having another browser that feels like Safari is a big instant NO in my book.

datavirtue 5y ago
You had me until Firefox.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  There is no alternative for people who care about preserving open web and standards.
dmitriid 5y ago
> but to me Safari is a horrible, terrible, very user hostile browser Yo mean, a fast, energy-efficient, user-friendly browser (that I personally have been using as my main browser for the bast 13 years).
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  It might be fast and energy-efficient, it is hard to measure in everyday life, but its horrible interface is driving me nuts, especially on mobile.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Its interface is nearly indistinguishable from any other browser (all browsers have converged on a more-or-less the same interface). Can't say about mobile though, I don't think I've ever used any other browser on mobile (well, except Opera almost 15 years ago)
imbnwa 5y ago
Stable WebKit (whats on iOS 15 and Monterrey) is breaking <canvas> with its recent GPU Acceleration flag toggled on, look at Issues or boards for any browser game engine based on <canvas> or the Apple Developer forum. I can't believe they didn't test that flag sufficiently like this.

yewenjie 5y ago

> Take Screenshot of the Entire Page is something I’ve wanted in a browser Firefox natively supports this. > Edit Text on Page is very useful to me as a translator. `document.designMode = "on"` in the console in any browser.

motform 5y ago
Full page screenshots are actually supported by FF, Chrome and Safari (even on mobile). For some reason, the feature is always hidden in some absurd place https://www.idownloadblog.com/2021/04/08/capture-full-page-screenshots-safari-firefox-chrome-mac/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2021/04/08/capture-full-page-s...
- dlccyes 5y ago
  only Firefox let you decide what exact area you want to screenshot tho (not limited to full page)
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    MS Edge "Web Capture" gives you the option to screenshot the full page or select an area.
  - est 5y ago
    Chrome: Open DevTools (F12 or sth), go to page, select the HTML node, right click, take screenshot.
sprucevoid 5y ago
I wish Firefox would natively let us silently take full page screenshots from a keyboard shortcut. It is (currently) a three click operation, but they seem to change the steps and graphics for it every year or so.
- rpadovani 5y ago
  CTRL+SHIFT+s does the trick for me, on Linux. I don't remember to have enabled it explicitly, so probably it works out of the box

ig0r0 5y ago

Direct download without waiting and signing up: https://browser.kagi.com/downloads/Orion.dmg https://browser.kagi.com/downloads/Orion.dmg

est 5y ago
The size is so small. Does it use system Webkit or just a launcher/downloader? Update: definitely a downloader. Need extra 111MB to install.

onion2k 5y ago

This is a bit off topic I guess, but I don't think the goal of fixing a slow Web can be achieved by building a faster Web browser. Developers will build and test (or not test) things on their powerful Macbooks, and usually ship things that aren't noticeably slow for them, then a user with a $300 Windows laptop from Walmart will struggle to click on things. This is the nature of web dev. Increasing the speed of the browser just means web devs will accept that code is fast enough when they use it, regardless of whether or not its fast enough when a user on a less powerful machine uses it. Essentially, web pages will always expand to fill the available resources of the dev's machine and if you use their code on a less powerful computer you're out of luck. If we want a faster web we need to get web devs to test on slower browsers and more realistic target devices. (I can actually think of an alternative solution that browser vendors could do ... Browsers could just display a blank screen whenever a web site falls below 60fps. Websites would get a lot faster pretty quickly if Chrome did that.) EDIT: Actually... This is possible. Chrome should display a blank screen when a website falls below 60fps when devtools is open. That would have no impact on users, but would push web developers to fix their slow pages. I'm genuinely tempted to find the time to make a PR...

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dotancohen 5y ago
I'll make the PR if you don't have the time. It's a great feature and aligns perfectly with Chrome's (original, stated) reason to exist: to make the web better.
mynameismon 5y ago
Another trick to deal with heavy web requests is artificially limiting bandwidth. By simulating a slow 3G connection using devtools (yes, its a feature!), developers should see how much time does it take to load. Personally, I would love to see the slow 3G speed the default
- onion2k 5y ago
  I think it would be great if devtools had a very prominent and easy to enable "test mode" that switched on a few settings like network and CPU throttling. It should be a top level tab like Elements and Recorder.

bumblebritches5 5y ago

captainmuon 5y ago

I just got a new MacBook after using Windows, and am trying to do things the "Mac" way, before I attempt to customize it too much. I kinda like Safari, although it has weird bugs (e.g.: if you use tab groups, it will randomly navigate back and forth). So I like the idea of a better version of Safari. The killer feature is the support of WebExtensions (ad blocker!) One thing that is really important to me is bookmark sync. It would be really great if you could implement Firefox sync (the source is available, I'm not sure if there are license problems in using it from a third party browser. In any case, if your extension model is powerful enough, somebody could write an open source extension to do it). This is the one feature for which I could imagine buying a pro version. Another thing that I think would be cool is a tab filter. Press a hotkey, get a list of all tabs. Then press "hacker" and it highlights all tabs with hacker(news), and ⌘-w to close them. Or you could move all tabs with "office" to a new window. Or maybe you find a clever UI to select and close all old, not recently used tabs. This would be great to clean up all the old tabs that accumulate.

dotancohen 5y ago
> I just got a new MacBook after using Windows, and am trying to do things the "Mac" way > Press a hotkey, get a list of all tabs. I recently tried a Mac for six months, coming from KDE on Debian-based systems. I also tried to do things the Mac way. I hate to break it to you, and am really trying to not be condescending, but despite Mac's famed usability a hotkey and then filter is too "hacker" to be "the Mac way". The Mac way is one click to get to things, even if that click generates dozens of possible things to get to. Filtering, completion, etc feel like a Linux accent on Mac (I don't know about Windows, haven't used it in two decades). You probably already know that e.g. Tridactyl offers such features in Firefox but I get trying to use a Mac browser. If you're jumping into the Mac Way, go all the way. Maybe it is better, I don't know, but sticking to your old ideas of what a workflow should be will just make the Mac frustrating.
- swiftcoder 5y ago
  > despite Mac's famed usability a hotkey and then filter is too "hacker" to be "the Mac way". The Mac way is one click to get to things, even if that click generates dozens of possible things to get to. Filtering, completion, etc feel like a Linux accent on Mac The ubiquity of spotlight (for example, the global CMD-space hotkey) throughout Mac OS would seem to belie that view

andrea76 5y ago

I would like to have a better "Find Text in Page", that darkens the page and not only highlights the found text. I remember that once upon a time Opera did this... can we do this with Firefox or Chrome?

oneeyedpigeon 5y ago
More intelligent search would be a huge bonus. I frequently search for text and it turns out that it's hidden on the page, but there's no indication of that in the search results, so it manifests as just a weird 'phantom' hit I have to skip past.

OrlandoHakim 5y ago

As a product manager I just want to say how impressed I am about Orion’s decision to not do any form of in-app tracking and instead to actively solicit and act on user feedback. This kind of decision takes courage in this day and age of detailed usage analytics. I might try it out in my own projects.

imbnwa 5y ago
As a Beta user, they intend on selling browser licenses IIRC
- billbrown 5y ago
  I think what the comment you're replying to meant was that the product team isn't capturing and reviewing user activity to figure out what the user's are doing or wanting.
  - kwonkicker 5y ago
    I think what the comment you are replying to means is that priorities can change, even more so if there is a change of ownership in the horizon.
    - imbnwa 5y ago
      See my sibling comment to yours for clarification on my mistake, but to respond I don't think Vlad intends on selling the browser since he needs it to promote his search engine, Kagi Search. Doesn't completely mitigate the risk but I think enough since its now tablestakes in the search engine space to offer your own browser, Brave is the same way.
  - imbnwa 5y ago
    Yeah, I misread grandparent and thought they were talking about forgoing profit from telemetry, e.g. Google Chrome
    - 5y ago

d3nj4l 5y ago

Idk if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but a browser is one of those things where I simply am not comfortable trying out options that aren't big or well known. At this point, the browser is essentially a window into my entire life, and I do things like check my bank balance on it. While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. So trying out a new, closed source browser - even if it is as great as everyone makes it seem - is a bit too much for me.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Did you mean to say "I can be reasonably certain they are looking into what I'm doing"?
- d3nj4l 5y ago
  That's funny, but Google has extremely powerful incentives to not snoop on me while I check my bank balance.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    like what?
    - d3nj4l 5y ago
      Chrome's entire reason for existing is that Google wants control over the client, so they can control the capabilities of the web. If they are snooping on the data of webpages or what you type, they will lose that. Also the fact that millions of eyeballs are on it, including security researchers who would be more than happy to report it.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        They are doing it now. Maybe this comment needs to go back to 2011 when no one knew better.
      - 5y ago

gnicholas 5y ago

> Orion supports both Chrome and Firefox extensions Wow, this sounds amazing! from a reddit thread: [1] > Overall really snappy, but almost all of my Chrome extensions didn’t work properly, except for UBlock Origin which was the headlining feature on their website. That's not good. I guess I'll download and see if my preferred extensions work with it. Other redditors didn't have issues with their extensions (though noted it was "hella buggy"). UPDATE: It does seem snappy (not much faster than Brave, if at all), but the first two extensions I tried didn't work great. Tree Style Tabs (Firefox addon) only appears on the right side of the window, and I can't find a way to move it to the left. BeeLine Reader (Chrome extension, I am the creator) runs fine, but the settings panel shows all the tabs at once, creating a very wide mess of settings. 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/r9mark/did_anyone_try_orion_browser_on_mac_os/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/r9mark/did_anyone_tr...

d3nj4l 5y ago
I second the bugginess - I gave it a spin (despite my paranoia...) and a lot of my favourite ff extensions don't work well, if at all. Chrome extensions fare better. I'm really tempted by the idea of a way more battery efficient browser that can still use ff extensions, but this isn't it (yet).
- freediver 5y ago
  Extension support in Orion is still experimental and product is in beta. The way to make it better is keep giving it a spin and contributing feedback to orionfeedback.org (a big ask I know!)
Cannabat 5y ago
A significant chunk of the web extension API is not yet implemented so some extensions do not work. But having my bug reports for extension issues addressed is very encouraging, as are my interactions with the team creating Orion. I think they will make it to the finish line.
juliusgeo 5y ago
Orion supports tree style tabs natively (Prefs->Appearance->Show tabs: On the Side).

pantulis 5y ago

I've been trying Orion these days. It's pretty awesome although there are some rough edges. The most annoying quirk is using my Airpods Pro with Google Meet, for some reason the mic input does not always get recognized (. This behaviour also happens from time to time in Safari so this may be not an Orion issue. Looking at the orionfeedback.org, I'd say that their most important challenge now is deciding what not to do.

Nextgrid 5y ago
I have been experiencing this problem consistently with Safari for months, I don't think it's Orion-specific.
- pantulis 5y ago
  One thing that I've noticed is that when running Orion in the macOS Control Center appears a new widget called "Mic Mode", which I've never seen while running Safari. But yes I am with you, I feel that this issue is not Orion-specific. But surely this thwarts my adoption efforts ;)
freediver 5y ago
There was a an update yesterday (0.99.113 beta) - does the issue persist after it?

dlccyes 5y ago

only Firefox let you decide what exact area you want to screenshot tho (not limited to full page)

rank0 5y ago

I’ve been using the beta for both iOS and macOS and tbh it’s just “meh”. It’s still in beta and as such has quite a few bugs. I’ve drifted back to FF. Although I gotta say I love Kagi search. I hope there’s a way to use the service TRULY anonymously though, because a paid service requires an auth token. If they provide a hidden service, a useful api, a cli tool, and a way to pay/use anonymously I’ll gladly pay a hefty annual/monthly subscription.

shafyy 5y ago
I've also been trying Kagi search these past days and I'm impressed by the search results and the performance. Will keep using it for the time being.
freediver 5y ago
Is it meh as a beta product or meh compared to existing mainstream browsers?
- rank0 5y ago
  It’s meh compared to existing mainstream browsers but being in beta still I don’t fault the project. The support for standard web extensions is incomplete and even ublock origin doesn’t work properly. Hopefully they can iron out the kinks of translating the standard web apis to WebKit.

egberts1 5y ago

just fired up Onion iOS through my own Zeek/Suricata/Snort monitoring gateway: no web browsing telemetry. Loving it.

egberts1 5y ago

I noticed that iCloud is used to store the password but it is not the seamless integration with Firefox password storage. And that is ok with me.

throwaway81523 5y ago

The problem now is the web, and browsers can no longer fix it without VERY wide adoption of the fixes, and that isn't happening. So any attempts to resist result in being unable to render the web as it exists out there. One can say browsers created the problem by letting the web get this way, but it is very hard to turn back now that we are here. It will only get worse.

Shadonototra 5y ago

It's not out and it is your main already? The amount of manipulation and propaganda is crazy these days Slow down!

pantulis 5y ago
Well, I've been trying Orion these last weeks. I've seen some issues related to Google Meet (but they are probably due to Webkit). Apart from that, Orion browser seems stable enough to be a main browser.

sdbillin 5y ago

What the world doesn't need is another webkit based browser.

369548684892826 5y ago

In case it saves anyone else the time I spent reading this before discovering it's for Mac only (for now): It's only available for Mac.

libeclipse 5y ago

No mention of security

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endemic 5y ago

I just requested access earlier this week; for work, I have to use a browser that uses the host's certificate store, and am not enthused to use Chrome or Edge. Safari is OK (not a fan of the UI), but no ad blocking is the worst.

_8j50 5y ago

I've tried it. The few bugs are expected for being so new but memory usage is the big issue for me. If you ask me what an ideal browser in 2022 is, it would essentially be a VM hypervisor with UI made for browsing. I would have paid for a browser that resurrected Servo or something but as much as I like Kagi from the same company, I just didn't see enough differentiator for Orion compared to say Brave.