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It's strange that Nato/USA seems to thing there's a hard and fast rule that says "indirect help of any form is fine, direct help is not and leads to war". It's

It's strange that Nato/USA seems to thing there's a hard and fast rule that says "indirect help of any form is fine, direct help is not and leads to war". It's like they think there's some sort of law of physics that prevent Putin interpreting smashing Russia in any indirect way is acceptable to Russia and not a declaration of war.

funstuff007 5y ago
Yeah, this line of reasoning did not work too well vis a vis the Japanese and Pearl Harbor.
jvanderbot 5y ago
There are rules, and consensus of action among allies is as important as anything when dealing with world powers.
mc32 5y ago
I think it depends on precedence. When we went into Afghanistan and Iraq, Russia kept from directly confronting us. There was an issue once with Turkey and Russian planes around Syria once or twice, but rarely got into direct line of fire of each other and kept things going though proxies. If we go beyond proxies that would breach precedent protocol and would be uncharted strategy.
credit_guy 5y ago
It's quite simple though: indirect help is a line in the sand that was already crossed. It's not about laws of physics. If Russia wanted to start a nuclear exchange because of the Javelins, they had reasons from day 1. Extra Javelins won't make them any more morally justified. It turns out now that Javelins and other man portable missiles are doing quite a good job in this war. The Turkish Bayraktar drone too [1]. That's what they need. And intelligence, and help on the cyber side, on the economic side and on the PR side. And they are getting all of those. And more: they just sent a bunch of helicopters to Romania to have them fixed. The Mig thing is just an unnecessary escalation, and the benefit is quite dubious too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=890z0skXQzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=890z0skXQzI [2] https://www.romaniajournal.ro/society-people/defmin-nine-ukrainian-helicopters-undergo-maintenance-checks-in-ghimbav-they-are-not-armed-five-more-to-go/ https://www.romaniajournal.ro/society-people/defmin-nine-ukr...
salmo 5y ago
It’s not new. It’s the difference between a proxy war and an actual war. Rome did it with Germanic tribes, China did with step tribes. You help the little guy fight the big guy to sap them, but avoid going head to head. When they failed at this, they’d get run over. Direct help is a generally understood act of war. We’re tip toeing that line right now with what we’re already doing. And we should be afraid because there isn’t a quorum calling the shots in Russia right now. It’s essentially 1 man’s mood and folks trying to talk him down.

funstuff007 5y ago

Yeah, this line of reasoning did not work too well vis a vis the Japanese and Pearl Harbor.

jvanderbot 5y ago

There are rules, and consensus of action among allies is as important as anything when dealing with world powers.

mc32 5y ago

I think it depends on precedence. When we went into Afghanistan and Iraq, Russia kept from directly confronting us. There was an issue once with Turkey and Russian planes around Syria once or twice, but rarely got into direct line of fire of each other and kept things going though proxies. If we go beyond proxies that would breach precedent protocol and would be uncharted strategy.

credit_guy 5y ago

It's quite simple though: indirect help is a line in the sand that was already crossed. It's not about laws of physics. If Russia wanted to start a nuclear exchange because of the Javelins, they had reasons from day 1. Extra Javelins won't make them any more morally justified. It turns out now that Javelins and other man portable missiles are doing quite a good job in this war. The Turkish Bayraktar drone too [1]. That's what they need. And intelligence, and help on the cyber side, on the economic side and on the PR side. And they are getting all of those. And more: they just sent a bunch of helicopters to Romania to have them fixed. The Mig thing is just an unnecessary escalation, and the benefit is quite dubious too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=890z0skXQzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=890z0skXQzI [2] https://www.romaniajournal.ro/society-people/defmin-nine-ukrainian-helicopters-undergo-maintenance-checks-in-ghimbav-they-are-not-armed-five-more-to-go/ https://www.romaniajournal.ro/society-people/defmin-nine-ukr...

salmo 5y ago

It’s not new. It’s the difference between a proxy war and an actual war. Rome did it with Germanic tribes, China did with step tribes. You help the little guy fight the big guy to sap them, but avoid going head to head. When they failed at this, they’d get run over. Direct help is a generally understood act of war. We’re tip toeing that line right now with what we’re already doing. And we should be afraid because there isn’t a quorum calling the shots in Russia right now. It’s essentially 1 man’s mood and folks trying to talk him down.