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> I also would like to believe that but it doesn’t seem to have worked out in favour of democracy in Russia Has it though? I personally know younger russians a

> I also would like to believe that but it doesn’t seem to have worked out in favour of democracy in Russia Has it though? I personally know younger russians and they are a lot more skeptic against the government and the propaganda than other older folks I've spoken to. It seems younger people that are more internet savvy and know english, has access to VPNs in general does not support their government as much. These are of course just my personal anecdotes but since there isn't that much data about it I think that's all I have to go on. If people in Russia don't learn english and have no contact with the western world the likelihood of them being subjected and believing the propaganda is probably higher. What good does shutting the russians out of the internet do?

BobbyJo 5y ago
> What good does shutting the russians out of the internet do? It makes "going with the flow" less palatable. Generally, things have to get bad enough before people deal with problems that enact large costs, and changing your government is expensive.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  If the Russians don't know what their government is doing wrong, how can they petition their government for change?
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    > If the Russians don't know what their government is doing wrong, how can they petition their government for change? Do you genuinely think they won't know? Honest question. I'm a pretty spoiled first-worlder, so it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where the Russian people don't find out about the internet being blocked, or goods they once had access to to disappearing, or their overall wealth taking a sudden and steep loss. Seeing as how Putin is presenting essentially all of that information to them on government channels, just with a spin, I don't see "them not knowing enough" being an honest risk.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      Nothing is stopping Putin from claiming this is unilateral aggression on the West's part while hiding as much as they can about Ukraine. The USSR used this tactic all the time to exert their rule/influence in other Soviet republics and brutally suppress rebellions with most Soviet citizens being none the wiser.
      - BobbyJo 5y ago
        > while hiding as much as they can about Ukraine The part we disagree on is how much he s capable of hiding. I believe it isn't enough.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Russians will realize that the internet no longer works.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      How will they connect the dots that the reason the internet is not working is because of the Russian government's actions in Ukraine? What's stopping Russia from spurring homegrown competitors to Western tech services like China has and enforcing their own Great Firewall?
krisoft 5y ago
> I personally know younger russians and they are a lot more skeptic against the government and the propaganda than other older folks I've spoken to. That is good to hear. Let’s assume this observation is true and it is caused by their exposure to the internet. Does it help with their democracy? One can get thrown into a prison for more than a decade for just calling the current war a war. Political opposition is inprisoned on trumped up charges or poisoned or both! How is a skeptic population going to help with any of these?
- richardw 5y ago
  > How is a skeptic population going to help with any of these? Brain drain. If smart people have a harder time living in a country that ignores them, they move to a place that suits their sensibilities and desire for a better future. Nobody is trying to get into Russia at this point.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    That is a very good point. Thank you.

BobbyJo 5y ago

> What good does shutting the russians out of the internet do? It makes "going with the flow" less palatable. Generally, things have to get bad enough before people deal with problems that enact large costs, and changing your government is expensive.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
If the Russians don't know what their government is doing wrong, how can they petition their government for change?
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  > If the Russians don't know what their government is doing wrong, how can they petition their government for change? Do you genuinely think they won't know? Honest question. I'm a pretty spoiled first-worlder, so it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where the Russian people don't find out about the internet being blocked, or goods they once had access to to disappearing, or their overall wealth taking a sudden and steep loss. Seeing as how Putin is presenting essentially all of that information to them on government channels, just with a spin, I don't see "them not knowing enough" being an honest risk.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    Nothing is stopping Putin from claiming this is unilateral aggression on the West's part while hiding as much as they can about Ukraine. The USSR used this tactic all the time to exert their rule/influence in other Soviet republics and brutally suppress rebellions with most Soviet citizens being none the wiser.
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      > while hiding as much as they can about Ukraine The part we disagree on is how much he s capable of hiding. I believe it isn't enough.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Russians will realize that the internet no longer works.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    How will they connect the dots that the reason the internet is not working is because of the Russian government's actions in Ukraine? What's stopping Russia from spurring homegrown competitors to Western tech services like China has and enforcing their own Great Firewall?

krisoft 5y ago

> I personally know younger russians and they are a lot more skeptic against the government and the propaganda than other older folks I've spoken to. That is good to hear. Let’s assume this observation is true and it is caused by their exposure to the internet. Does it help with their democracy? One can get thrown into a prison for more than a decade for just calling the current war a war. Political opposition is inprisoned on trumped up charges or poisoned or both! How is a skeptic population going to help with any of these?

richardw 5y ago
> How is a skeptic population going to help with any of these? Brain drain. If smart people have a harder time living in a country that ignores them, they move to a place that suits their sensibilities and desire for a better future. Nobody is trying to get into Russia at this point.
- krisoft 5y ago
  That is a very good point. Thank you.