6 ms·

This person should likely not be a CO if they refuse to get the COVID vaccine. They are indicating that they refuse benign orders purely because they have some

This person should likely not be a CO if they refuse to get the COVID vaccine. They are indicating that they refuse benign orders purely because they have some philosophical objection to them. What kind of example does that set?

amatecha 5y ago
I don't think refusal of an injection of a substance into one's body is purely "philosophical" (nor do I think it's reasonable to judge such an injection as purely "benign"). I also think each person should have full agency over their body and what is done to it, and any violation thereof is a pretty fundamental human rights concern. That said, I imagine the military should be able to reassign the CO to a different role/location/etc. (not in a punitive way, but in an accommodating way). The currently-widespread invalidation of peoples' right to bodily autonomy honestly blows my mind, and how little employers do to accommodate this is super disappointing to me.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  It's incredible the tolerance for antisocial behavior these days. There are people who will still burn trash amidst the worst consequences of climate change because "only myself matters" attitudes. They want to enjoy the fruits of society without social responsibility.
  - Jotra7 5y ago
    It's because we live in a corporate marketing curated hellscape of "rugged individual" libertarian consumerist zombies who have zero community awareness or empathy, drooling their way through their own exploitation while screeching about freedom. It's exhausting.
  - burner556 5y ago
    There are those of us who think the collective good is supreme and are willing to violate individual rights to reach that good. There are those who hold individual rights to be the highest. I think the second is more compatible with the United States. We are guaranteed individual liberties.
    - koshergweilo 5y ago
      > I think the second is more compatible with the United States. We are guaranteed individual liberties. Sorry but this has never been the case. I mean when the country was founded slavery was perfectly legal. The enslaved people would certainly argue that the US did not hold individual rights to the highest standard. Not to mention the first president literally did exactly what we're doing now [1] [1]: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/viral-image/yes-george-washington-ordered-troops-be-inoculated/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/viral-imag...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - ASalazarMX 5y ago
      You must ferociously support abortion, gay marriage, Black Lives Matter, and Dreamers. I salute you, valiant freedom fighter!
      - burner556 5y ago
        I support precisely half of those things.
  - logic_beats_pro 5y ago
    Good point regarding "only myself matters". Just look at the reasons most people actually got the vaccine: - I don't want to die! - I don't want to be really sick! - I don't want to lose my job! - I want to travel! And on the opposite side of the coin, the "for the greater good" reason: - I want to prevent spreading the disease to my fellow man. Is not even a benefit of the vaccine.
    - ASalazarMX 5y ago
      I'm not going to reason your argument because I've noticed it never works. I think you also want the things you're listing, but what is your core reason to refuse the vaccine? - You distrust the medical science of vaccines? - You distrust the data showing the current effect of mass vaccination? - Is it truly about individualism, or religion? - Does it have to do with politics and those damned democrats? - Because the governments didn't ask nicely? Remember that we're trying to stop deaths, not infections. It would be awesome if we could stop infections, but COVID mutates. Nevertheless, deaths have decreased sharply among the vaccinated population.
    - e40 5y ago
      - I want to not infect and kill other people. Yes, there are many ways to play your stupid game.
  - qiskit 5y ago
    > It's incredible the tolerance for antisocial behavior these days. Protecting one's body and exercising one's individual rights is not antisocial behavior. Just want to make that crystal clear. And nobody has the right to force you to inject anything into your body. Especially the government. Erich Fromm wrote the masses have a slavish need for authority and most people are incapable of being true free individuals. I really didn't believe until covid. You saw bits of it during the start of iraq war, but not to this degree.
    - ASalazarMX 5y ago
      How do you protect others from your decision? Surely you're not planning to live alone to protect others, specially vulnerable people, from a preventable risk? Your rights stop where the rights of others begin.
      - torstenvl 5y ago
        > Your rights stop where the rights of others begin. Which is why nobody has the right to force you to get penetrated and injected with something against your will.
        ASalazarMX 5y ago
        Can you at least agree that others also have a right to not be sick because of your selfish decisions? Before the vaccines, people were dying because hospitals were saturated, it's clearly turned for the better after them, because people can still get infected and spread it, but their viral charge is mild. COVID can't be eradicated because there are animal reservoirs, but having people stubbornly refuse to vaccinate means they are like we were at the start of the pandemic, forming a permanent human reservoir breeding new mutations, because politics.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Wrong. American fetishization of individualism is a sickness that is literally rotting our society by causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. Causing people to die is pretty much the absolute most anti social thing someone can do. Sure, no one has the right to force you to take a vaccine, but society absolutely has the right to completely exclude you if you are making decisions that are causing people to die.
- burner556 5y ago
  Also cannot see how people overlook “forced injections”. It’s basic autonomy over your own body. No government or employer should have the right to determine what gets injected into your body.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    Who's forcing someone? He can quit if he doesn't like it. He's not entitled to a job.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    This argument is more colorable when not applied to people who signed a contract that says you must follow all orders given to you by the president or others in the chain of command. Those orders might include literal suicide missions, or exposure to chemical, biological, or nuclear hazards. There isn't even a draft any more.
    - torstenvl 5y ago
      > This argument is more colorable when not applied to people who signed a contract that says you must follow all orders given to you by the president or others in the chain of command Nobody has signed such a contract. The orders must be lawful, and not unreasonably interfere with personal matters. Manual for Courts-Martial (2019 ed.), Part IV, para. 16.c.(2)(a)(iv). Your argument would be stronger if there were better evidence that the vaccine was significantly effective at preventing infection rather than ameliorating its course.
      - xxpor 5y ago
        Granted, this is an officer, but I assume it's close enough to the DD-4 language (officer vs enlisted isn't an issue afaik in this case): >FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: I understand that many laws, regulations, and military customs will govern my conduct and require me to do things under this agreement that a civilian does not have to do. I also understand that various laws, some of which are listed in this agreement, directly affect this enlistment/reenlistment agreement. Some examples of how existing laws may affect this agreement are explained in paragraphs 10 and 11. I understand that I cannot change these laws but that Congress may change these laws, or pass new laws, at any time that may affect this agreement, and that I will be subject to those laws and any changes they make to this agreement. I further understand that: a. My enlistment/reenlistment agreement is more than an employment agreement. It effects a change in status from civilian to military member of the Armed Forces. As a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, I will be: (1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties. (2) Subject to separation during or at the end of my enlistment. If my behavior fails to meet acceptable military standards, I may be discharged and given a certificate for less than honorable service, which may hurt my future job opportunities and my claim for veteran's benefits. (3) Subject to the military justice system, which means, among other things, that I may be tried by military courts-martial. (4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations. (5) Entitled to receive pay, allowances, and other benefits as provided by law and regulation. b. Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/ reenlistment document. and the oath: >I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd0004.pdf https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd0...
- BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
  We're talking about the military, here. When you enlist, you cede most control over your health (including what and when to eat, when you can and cannot sleep, and yes even drugs) to such an extent that you accept that your orders may get you maimed or killed. I'm not saying I would take that deal, but the person in the article did. If he can't comply, he should be discharged. Simple as that.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Then leave the military. You give that right up when you join a military.
gfodor 5y ago
- kevingadd 5y ago
  "some immunity" does not stop you from spreading COVID to half the crew of your ship
  - gfodor 5y ago
    Neither does the vaccine. Natural immunity is more protective vs omicron, at least according to some studies. The best combo of course is a post infection vaccination, but the vaccine wears off after 5 months anyway.
  - tmn 5y ago
    Neither does the ‘vaccine’.
- loxias 5y ago
  >side effect risk for men under 40 is non trivial I call bullshit!
  - sirspacey 5y ago
    Not that hard to look it up https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00054-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...
  - gfodor 5y ago
    1 in 10k myocarditis risk for males under 40 for moderna, replicated several times. Pfizer mixed iirc, but still non trivial risk.
    - albertopv 5y ago
      Lol. We are talking about army/navy, where you could kill or get killed even in a drill.

amatecha 5y ago

I don't think refusal of an injection of a substance into one's body is purely "philosophical" (nor do I think it's reasonable to judge such an injection as purely "benign"). I also think each person should have full agency over their body and what is done to it, and any violation thereof is a pretty fundamental human rights concern. That said, I imagine the military should be able to reassign the CO to a different role/location/etc. (not in a punitive way, but in an accommodating way). The currently-widespread invalidation of peoples' right to bodily autonomy honestly blows my mind, and how little employers do to accommodate this is super disappointing to me.

ASalazarMX 5y ago
It's incredible the tolerance for antisocial behavior these days. There are people who will still burn trash amidst the worst consequences of climate change because "only myself matters" attitudes. They want to enjoy the fruits of society without social responsibility.
- Jotra7 5y ago
  It's because we live in a corporate marketing curated hellscape of "rugged individual" libertarian consumerist zombies who have zero community awareness or empathy, drooling their way through their own exploitation while screeching about freedom. It's exhausting.
- burner556 5y ago
  There are those of us who think the collective good is supreme and are willing to violate individual rights to reach that good. There are those who hold individual rights to be the highest. I think the second is more compatible with the United States. We are guaranteed individual liberties.
  - koshergweilo 5y ago
    > I think the second is more compatible with the United States. We are guaranteed individual liberties. Sorry but this has never been the case. I mean when the country was founded slavery was perfectly legal. The enslaved people would certainly argue that the US did not hold individual rights to the highest standard. Not to mention the first president literally did exactly what we're doing now [1] [1]: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/viral-image/yes-george-washington-ordered-troops-be-inoculated/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/viral-imag...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    You must ferociously support abortion, gay marriage, Black Lives Matter, and Dreamers. I salute you, valiant freedom fighter!
    - burner556 5y ago
      I support precisely half of those things.
- logic_beats_pro 5y ago
  Good point regarding "only myself matters". Just look at the reasons most people actually got the vaccine: - I don't want to die! - I don't want to be really sick! - I don't want to lose my job! - I want to travel! And on the opposite side of the coin, the "for the greater good" reason: - I want to prevent spreading the disease to my fellow man. Is not even a benefit of the vaccine.
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    I'm not going to reason your argument because I've noticed it never works. I think you also want the things you're listing, but what is your core reason to refuse the vaccine? - You distrust the medical science of vaccines? - You distrust the data showing the current effect of mass vaccination? - Is it truly about individualism, or religion? - Does it have to do with politics and those damned democrats? - Because the governments didn't ask nicely? Remember that we're trying to stop deaths, not infections. It would be awesome if we could stop infections, but COVID mutates. Nevertheless, deaths have decreased sharply among the vaccinated population.
  - e40 5y ago
    - I want to not infect and kill other people. Yes, there are many ways to play your stupid game.
- qiskit 5y ago
  > It's incredible the tolerance for antisocial behavior these days. Protecting one's body and exercising one's individual rights is not antisocial behavior. Just want to make that crystal clear. And nobody has the right to force you to inject anything into your body. Especially the government. Erich Fromm wrote the masses have a slavish need for authority and most people are incapable of being true free individuals. I really didn't believe until covid. You saw bits of it during the start of iraq war, but not to this degree.
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    How do you protect others from your decision? Surely you're not planning to live alone to protect others, specially vulnerable people, from a preventable risk? Your rights stop where the rights of others begin.
    - torstenvl 5y ago
      > Your rights stop where the rights of others begin. Which is why nobody has the right to force you to get penetrated and injected with something against your will.
      - ASalazarMX 5y ago
        Can you at least agree that others also have a right to not be sick because of your selfish decisions? Before the vaccines, people were dying because hospitals were saturated, it's clearly turned for the better after them, because people can still get infected and spread it, but their viral charge is mild. COVID can't be eradicated because there are animal reservoirs, but having people stubbornly refuse to vaccinate means they are like we were at the start of the pandemic, forming a permanent human reservoir breeding new mutations, because politics.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Wrong. American fetishization of individualism is a sickness that is literally rotting our society by causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. Causing people to die is pretty much the absolute most anti social thing someone can do. Sure, no one has the right to force you to take a vaccine, but society absolutely has the right to completely exclude you if you are making decisions that are causing people to die.
burner556 5y ago
Also cannot see how people overlook “forced injections”. It’s basic autonomy over your own body. No government or employer should have the right to determine what gets injected into your body.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  Who's forcing someone? He can quit if he doesn't like it. He's not entitled to a job.
- xxpor 5y ago
  This argument is more colorable when not applied to people who signed a contract that says you must follow all orders given to you by the president or others in the chain of command. Those orders might include literal suicide missions, or exposure to chemical, biological, or nuclear hazards. There isn't even a draft any more.
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    > This argument is more colorable when not applied to people who signed a contract that says you must follow all orders given to you by the president or others in the chain of command Nobody has signed such a contract. The orders must be lawful, and not unreasonably interfere with personal matters. Manual for Courts-Martial (2019 ed.), Part IV, para. 16.c.(2)(a)(iv). Your argument would be stronger if there were better evidence that the vaccine was significantly effective at preventing infection rather than ameliorating its course.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      Granted, this is an officer, but I assume it's close enough to the DD-4 language (officer vs enlisted isn't an issue afaik in this case): >FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: I understand that many laws, regulations, and military customs will govern my conduct and require me to do things under this agreement that a civilian does not have to do. I also understand that various laws, some of which are listed in this agreement, directly affect this enlistment/reenlistment agreement. Some examples of how existing laws may affect this agreement are explained in paragraphs 10 and 11. I understand that I cannot change these laws but that Congress may change these laws, or pass new laws, at any time that may affect this agreement, and that I will be subject to those laws and any changes they make to this agreement. I further understand that: a. My enlistment/reenlistment agreement is more than an employment agreement. It effects a change in status from civilian to military member of the Armed Forces. As a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, I will be: (1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties. (2) Subject to separation during or at the end of my enlistment. If my behavior fails to meet acceptable military standards, I may be discharged and given a certificate for less than honorable service, which may hurt my future job opportunities and my claim for veteran's benefits. (3) Subject to the military justice system, which means, among other things, that I may be tried by military courts-martial. (4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations. (5) Entitled to receive pay, allowances, and other benefits as provided by law and regulation. b. Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/ reenlistment document. and the oath: >I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd0004.pdf https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd0...
BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
We're talking about the military, here. When you enlist, you cede most control over your health (including what and when to eat, when you can and cannot sleep, and yes even drugs) to such an extent that you accept that your orders may get you maimed or killed. I'm not saying I would take that deal, but the person in the article did. If he can't comply, he should be discharged. Simple as that.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Then leave the military. You give that right up when you join a military.

gfodor 5y ago

kevingadd 5y ago
"some immunity" does not stop you from spreading COVID to half the crew of your ship
- gfodor 5y ago
  Neither does the vaccine. Natural immunity is more protective vs omicron, at least according to some studies. The best combo of course is a post infection vaccination, but the vaccine wears off after 5 months anyway.
- tmn 5y ago
  Neither does the ‘vaccine’.
loxias 5y ago
>side effect risk for men under 40 is non trivial I call bullshit!
- sirspacey 5y ago
  Not that hard to look it up https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00054-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...
- gfodor 5y ago
  1 in 10k myocarditis risk for males under 40 for moderna, replicated several times. Pfizer mixed iirc, but still non trivial risk.
  - albertopv 5y ago
    Lol. We are talking about army/navy, where you could kill or get killed even in a drill.