4 ms·

Poland is side stepping the blatant risk of escalating to a war with Russia and/or WW3 by trying to move the Migs into Ukraine itself, but it still wants the F1

Poland is side stepping the blatant risk of escalating to a war with Russia and/or WW3 by trying to move the Migs into Ukraine itself, but it still wants the F16s that the US is offering. This way it moves the problem to the US by having the planes go West to Germany instead and let Biden figure it out. I'm interested in how the US plans to get Migs into Ukraine in a way that isn't an act of war.

logifail 5y ago
> I'm interested in how the US plans to get Migs into Ukraine in a way that isn't an act of war. This. Biden said on 24 Feb that the US will be 'involved' if [Putin] moves into NATO countries. Now we're to believe NATO wants to move Migs into Ukraine? This isn't [yet] NATO vs Russia. Let's not make it that.
- ISL 5y ago
  NATO already has been supplying advanced man-portable missiles, artillery, intelligence, firearms/machine-guns of all kinds, communications equipment, night-vision systems, etc. From that angle, an aircraft is only a small step upward. It really does make a difference who is flying the plane or pulling the trigger, in both real-world capability and scope.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > NATO already has been supplying advanced man-portable missiles, artillery, intelligence, firearms/machine-guns of all kinds, communications equipment, night-vision systems, etc. Source? A few days ago Zelensky was quoted as saying that "NATO [has] provided nothing but 50 tons of diesel"
    - ISL 5y ago
      https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/ukraine-receives-shipment-machine-guns-surveillance-gear-canada-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/ukraine-receives-shipme... https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2022/03/08/ukraines-use-of-stinger-and-javelin-missiles-is-outstripping-us-production/?sh=b3f2aff2409e https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2022/03/08/ukraines... https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2022_global_security_army_industry/ukraine_to_receive_h-63_d-30_122mm_howitzers_and_javelin_missiles_from_estonia.html https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2022_gl... etcetera.
    - wahern 5y ago
      NATO hasn't provided direct assistance to Ukraine; it's NATO members independently providing assistance, and they've provided considerable amounts. The same would be true for the MIGs--they'd come from Poland via the U.S., independent of NATO. However, because NATO would be required to defend Poland if Russia retaliated, NATO and other NATO members would have been involved in the discussions. Zelensky is, of course, trying to goad NATO into directly intervening. Ukrainian messaging has been remarkably consistent and well orchestrated.
- 323 5y ago
  US/UK/Germany/Sweden and many other EU/Nato countries already sent over 15,000 anti tank missiles and over 3,000 anti aircraft missiles to Ukraine. Including this week. But they sent in individual name, not in NATO name. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/us/politics/us-ukraine-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/us/politics/us-ukraine-we... What do you think all those Russian tanks were blown with.
- zepearl 5y ago
  I agree. I don't like at all this "deal" - I see this as a huge risk of escalating things. I'm happy that the americans are willing to help in general, but I don't like their direct involvement without being provoked (too scared of another total mess).

logifail 5y ago

> I'm interested in how the US plans to get Migs into Ukraine in a way that isn't an act of war. This. Biden said on 24 Feb that the US will be 'involved' if [Putin] moves into NATO countries. Now we're to believe NATO wants to move Migs into Ukraine? This isn't [yet] NATO vs Russia. Let's not make it that.

ISL 5y ago
NATO already has been supplying advanced man-portable missiles, artillery, intelligence, firearms/machine-guns of all kinds, communications equipment, night-vision systems, etc. From that angle, an aircraft is only a small step upward. It really does make a difference who is flying the plane or pulling the trigger, in both real-world capability and scope.
- logifail 5y ago
  > NATO already has been supplying advanced man-portable missiles, artillery, intelligence, firearms/machine-guns of all kinds, communications equipment, night-vision systems, etc. Source? A few days ago Zelensky was quoted as saying that "NATO [has] provided nothing but 50 tons of diesel"
  - ISL 5y ago
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/ukraine-receives-shipment-machine-guns-surveillance-gear-canada-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/ukraine-receives-shipme... https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2022/03/08/ukraines-use-of-stinger-and-javelin-missiles-is-outstripping-us-production/?sh=b3f2aff2409e https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2022/03/08/ukraines... https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2022_global_security_army_industry/ukraine_to_receive_h-63_d-30_122mm_howitzers_and_javelin_missiles_from_estonia.html https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2022_gl... etcetera.
  - wahern 5y ago
    NATO hasn't provided direct assistance to Ukraine; it's NATO members independently providing assistance, and they've provided considerable amounts. The same would be true for the MIGs--they'd come from Poland via the U.S., independent of NATO. However, because NATO would be required to defend Poland if Russia retaliated, NATO and other NATO members would have been involved in the discussions. Zelensky is, of course, trying to goad NATO into directly intervening. Ukrainian messaging has been remarkably consistent and well orchestrated.
323 5y ago
US/UK/Germany/Sweden and many other EU/Nato countries already sent over 15,000 anti tank missiles and over 3,000 anti aircraft missiles to Ukraine. Including this week. But they sent in individual name, not in NATO name. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/us/politics/us-ukraine-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/us/politics/us-ukraine-we... What do you think all those Russian tanks were blown with.
zepearl 5y ago
I agree. I don't like at all this "deal" - I see this as a huge risk of escalating things. I'm happy that the americans are willing to help in general, but I don't like their direct involvement without being provoked (too scared of another total mess).