4 ms·

> at what point do we decide to continue to serve Russians because the citizenry are still people. Hmm, lets ask the North Koreans! Sanctions don't make a bet

by jopsen 5y ago

> at what point do we decide to continue to serve Russians because the citizenry are still people. Hmm, lets ask the North Koreans! Sanctions don't make a better world, but it's better than bombs. We can also try another "Russian Reset", I think both Bush and Obama did a "Russian Reset" with Putin. If we don't want Russia to have a powerful military, sanctions is the least evil tool we have.

maerF0x0 5y ago
I'm not sure your whole point. But there's a line of ethical thinking that says there are certain lines I won't cross, regardless of how bad you treat me. For me one of those would be to deny someone food and water from my own surplus. I understand that RedHat consulting is not the same, but as I see more and more companies pull out I wonder how long it will be until it's wheat, insulin, medical devices etc? The russian citizenry are not (directly) responsible for Putins insanity, nor for being brainwashed by state media.
- jopsen 5y ago
  My point is that things are pretty bad in North Korea (they used to have famines not long ago). Yet, that didn't make us ease sanctions significantly. Did it? My point being: things can probably get very bad in Russia before we ease sanctions due to humanitarian concerns. Yes, it's a tragedy. Hopefully, all of this ends before it gets that far.
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    > Yet, that didn't make us ease sanctions significantly. Did it? One could equally flip that. Did famines and sanctions make them our allies? No, it hasn't.
    - jopsen 5y ago
      Absolutely, that's tragedy of it. Sanctions won't make them surrender, or make them our friends. It'll just make the poor. The only good thing sanctions against North Korea did was: 1. Make their army poorly maintained, 2. Discourage others from doing similar tricks. I'm not even sure we were successful at (2).
- type0 5y ago
  > The russian citizenry are not (directly) responsible for Putins insanity they are and alot of them still support both Putin and this "special operation"
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    While you might attribute this to them being terrible wastes of humanity. I'd suggest it's probably no specific flaw on the Russian people besides their indiscriminate exposure to brainwashing state propaganda. I have a hard time blaming people for doing exactly what their environment programs them to.
    - type0 5y ago
      > While you might attribute this to them being terrible wastes of humanity Your words not mine, I do love Russian people and the culture but Putin cult of personality is sick it makes the whole of society rotten. Russian people are not naive they need to understand they are being brainwashed and stand up for themselves, they could in the times of Perestrojka and can do it now.
      - ZoomZoomZoom 5y ago
        > they could in the times of Perestrojka and can do it now They didn't and they most probably won't. Perestroika was a top-down change, not some kind of a people's revolution, they just rode the wave.
        type0 5y ago
        Yes and to be clear I'm talking about the military coup and Boris Yeltsin at the collapse of Soviet Union that happened with the support of common people.
- Etherlord87 5y ago
  > For me one of those would be to deny someone food and water from my own surplus. That attitude puts you in an abusive relationship. Reminds me how my brother would ask me for money to pay for his next car loan installment, and when I would help him, he would spend his money on entertainment. Or like in situational jokes in comedies: two guys order a beer, guy A drinks a beer. Guy B wants to drink a beer, but is stopped by guy A: "this is mine beer, yours was the one I already drunk". In other words, Russia has the resources to feed its people. But if Russia decides to spend the resources on building nuclear warheads, we shouldn't help its citizens with food. And yes, I'm aware it's less about giving the food for free and more about selling it. But there are other resources than money: if Russia is unable to secure food for itself, this is because the government has diverted attention (being another resource) to something else like military efforts. We're not sanctioning a small, heavily populated island. To the contrary. Russians have a lot of time to prepare food reserves.

by jopsen 5y ago

maerF0x0 5y ago

I'm not sure your whole point. But there's a line of ethical thinking that says there are certain lines I won't cross, regardless of how bad you treat me. For me one of those would be to deny someone food and water from my own surplus. I understand that RedHat consulting is not the same, but as I see more and more companies pull out I wonder how long it will be until it's wheat, insulin, medical devices etc? The russian citizenry are not (directly) responsible for Putins insanity, nor for being brainwashed by state media.

jopsen 5y ago
My point is that things are pretty bad in North Korea (they used to have famines not long ago). Yet, that didn't make us ease sanctions significantly. Did it? My point being: things can probably get very bad in Russia before we ease sanctions due to humanitarian concerns. Yes, it's a tragedy. Hopefully, all of this ends before it gets that far.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  > Yet, that didn't make us ease sanctions significantly. Did it? One could equally flip that. Did famines and sanctions make them our allies? No, it hasn't.
  - jopsen 5y ago
    Absolutely, that's tragedy of it. Sanctions won't make them surrender, or make them our friends. It'll just make the poor. The only good thing sanctions against North Korea did was: 1. Make their army poorly maintained, 2. Discourage others from doing similar tricks. I'm not even sure we were successful at (2).
type0 5y ago
> The russian citizenry are not (directly) responsible for Putins insanity they are and alot of them still support both Putin and this "special operation"
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  While you might attribute this to them being terrible wastes of humanity. I'd suggest it's probably no specific flaw on the Russian people besides their indiscriminate exposure to brainwashing state propaganda. I have a hard time blaming people for doing exactly what their environment programs them to.
  - type0 5y ago
    > While you might attribute this to them being terrible wastes of humanity Your words not mine, I do love Russian people and the culture but Putin cult of personality is sick it makes the whole of society rotten. Russian people are not naive they need to understand they are being brainwashed and stand up for themselves, they could in the times of Perestrojka and can do it now.
    - ZoomZoomZoom 5y ago
      > they could in the times of Perestrojka and can do it now They didn't and they most probably won't. Perestroika was a top-down change, not some kind of a people's revolution, they just rode the wave.
      - type0 5y ago
        Yes and to be clear I'm talking about the military coup and Boris Yeltsin at the collapse of Soviet Union that happened with the support of common people.
Etherlord87 5y ago
> For me one of those would be to deny someone food and water from my own surplus. That attitude puts you in an abusive relationship. Reminds me how my brother would ask me for money to pay for his next car loan installment, and when I would help him, he would spend his money on entertainment. Or like in situational jokes in comedies: two guys order a beer, guy A drinks a beer. Guy B wants to drink a beer, but is stopped by guy A: "this is mine beer, yours was the one I already drunk". In other words, Russia has the resources to feed its people. But if Russia decides to spend the resources on building nuclear warheads, we shouldn't help its citizens with food. And yes, I'm aware it's less about giving the food for free and more about selling it. But there are other resources than money: if Russia is unable to secure food for itself, this is because the government has diverted attention (being another resource) to something else like military efforts. We're not sanctioning a small, heavily populated island. To the contrary. Russians have a lot of time to prepare food reserves.