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I hate that this is hurting regular Russians. But I don't have an alternative suggestion which hits only the oligarchs [1], and I understand the cruel logic of

I hate that this is hurting regular Russians. But I don't have an alternative suggestion which hits only the oligarchs [1], and I understand the cruel logic of making regular Russians so unhappy they overthrow that shitshow they have in place of a government. [1] Actually I do, cut all russian gas and oil imports right now, no matter how painful, and apply sanctions to anyone who continues trading russian gas and oil, no matter if friend or foe, big or small. Soften the financial blow to the lower and middle class with some progressive tax, offer large incentives to build wind, solar, EV chargers, heat pumps, better thermal insulation of homes, etc. I'm oversimplifying, and sharper minds would be needed to improve the basic idea and close exploitable loopholes, but it would be doable if we really, really wanted. The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped.

definataly 5y ago
> The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped. Were were you when the killing of innocent Russians was taking place in 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donbass/a-42597692 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donba... What would you think if a region in Europe belonging to a larger country clamored for independence but was crushed by the military and by sanctioned militias which are antisemitic and right wing radicals? https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_political_parties_and_groups/ https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_... How much do you really know about May 2nd 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2-2014/a-18425200 https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2... About the ties between radical anti-democratic para-military groups, the US and Ukraine? https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... I don't know much, but would be surprised if it's as simple as: Russia = BAD, Ukraine = GOOD. note that I'm not saying Russia is innocent or justified. Their war is unjustified and an atrocity. But Ukraine is not a beacon of democracy, respect and peace either. They are a country whose government has supported radical and violent tactics against some of its own ethnic groups. Neither Russian nor Ukrainian civilians deserve any of this. In my opinion, protests, and sanctions should be very targeted (at leaders, companies and groups participating in these violent attacks: Now Russians ones, a few years ago Ukrainian ones).
- type0 5y ago
  > Were were you when the killing of innocent Russians was taking place in 2014? These people were Ukranian citizens, Putin funded the separatists and tried to start a civil war. Since that didn't succeed plan B was to invade the country as we are seeing now
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  A lot of weird insinuations from weird sources ( especially modern diplomacy, yikes). You are very critical of right extremists that represent 2% of the population. Note : I hate extremists left and right. But 2-3% doesn't seem out of the ordinary. It seems that you are overrepresenting a minor group ( extremists ), that should easily be crushed by the majority you are presenting. As far as I'm aware, in 2014 people in some eastern regions were 54% in favor of Russia ( not a clear majority either) and because of the gray zone invasion in 2014 that declined to 14% later on. Considering that 17,3% in entire Ukraine identify as ethic Russians and not Ukrainians, I'm actually suprised by the weak support later on. Eg. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60362274 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60362274 Here a follow-up how life worsened under Russia's annexation of Crimea and that people were changing perspectives after years, they have regrets - https://youtu.be/lzO7gIT5GYU https://youtu.be/lzO7gIT5GYU
  - definataly 5y ago
    How is Deutsche Welle a weird source? > Deutsche Welle or DW is a German public, state-owned international broadcaster funded by the German federal tax budget. Granted, "modern diplomacy" sounds a bit conspiracy leaning. However, I think you missed my point. My point is not that Ukrainians are bad or Russians are justified. My point is that western media is making things oversimplified and polarized. Demonizing some people and cutting all support, treating others as heroes, arming them and forgetting their violations. It's not about the % of extremists. It's that they committed several murders and went unpunished because the government / police turned a blind eye. It was convenient at the time because it silenced the pro-russian independent movements. Is that the hallmark of a western democracy? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... >> Here a follow-up how life worsened under Russia's annexation of Crimea Again, I'm not arguing being under the thumb of an autocratic regime like Russia is good for anyone. But shouldn't populations make that decision themselves? Or do we get to decide what's best for them?

definataly 5y ago

> The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped. Were were you when the killing of innocent Russians was taking place in 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donbass/a-42597692 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donba... What would you think if a region in Europe belonging to a larger country clamored for independence but was crushed by the military and by sanctioned militias which are antisemitic and right wing radicals? https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_political_parties_and_groups/ https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_... How much do you really know about May 2nd 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2-2014/a-18425200 https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2... About the ties between radical anti-democratic para-military groups, the US and Ukraine? https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... I don't know much, but would be surprised if it's as simple as: Russia = BAD, Ukraine = GOOD. note that I'm not saying Russia is innocent or justified. Their war is unjustified and an atrocity. But Ukraine is not a beacon of democracy, respect and peace either. They are a country whose government has supported radical and violent tactics against some of its own ethnic groups. Neither Russian nor Ukrainian civilians deserve any of this. In my opinion, protests, and sanctions should be very targeted (at leaders, companies and groups participating in these violent attacks: Now Russians ones, a few years ago Ukrainian ones).

type0 5y ago
> Were were you when the killing of innocent Russians was taking place in 2014? These people were Ukranian citizens, Putin funded the separatists and tried to start a civil war. Since that didn't succeed plan B was to invade the country as we are seeing now
NicoJuicy 5y ago
A lot of weird insinuations from weird sources ( especially modern diplomacy, yikes). You are very critical of right extremists that represent 2% of the population. Note : I hate extremists left and right. But 2-3% doesn't seem out of the ordinary. It seems that you are overrepresenting a minor group ( extremists ), that should easily be crushed by the majority you are presenting. As far as I'm aware, in 2014 people in some eastern regions were 54% in favor of Russia ( not a clear majority either) and because of the gray zone invasion in 2014 that declined to 14% later on. Considering that 17,3% in entire Ukraine identify as ethic Russians and not Ukrainians, I'm actually suprised by the weak support later on. Eg. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60362274 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60362274 Here a follow-up how life worsened under Russia's annexation of Crimea and that people were changing perspectives after years, they have regrets - https://youtu.be/lzO7gIT5GYU https://youtu.be/lzO7gIT5GYU
- definataly 5y ago
  How is Deutsche Welle a weird source? > Deutsche Welle or DW is a German public, state-owned international broadcaster funded by the German federal tax budget. Granted, "modern diplomacy" sounds a bit conspiracy leaning. However, I think you missed my point. My point is not that Ukrainians are bad or Russians are justified. My point is that western media is making things oversimplified and polarized. Demonizing some people and cutting all support, treating others as heroes, arming them and forgetting their violations. It's not about the % of extremists. It's that they committed several murders and went unpunished because the government / police turned a blind eye. It was convenient at the time because it silenced the pro-russian independent movements. Is that the hallmark of a western democracy? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... >> Here a follow-up how life worsened under Russia's annexation of Crimea Again, I'm not arguing being under the thumb of an autocratic regime like Russia is good for anyone. But shouldn't populations make that decision themselves? Or do we get to decide what's best for them?