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What has never made sense to me is that the IQ effects aren't equally visible across income/class groups, but we know there are millions of wealthy people livin

What has never made sense to me is that the IQ effects aren't equally visible across income/class groups, but we know there are millions of wealthy people living in old housing in Boston and NYC and Providence and so on. Lead levels in those houses must be just as high, right? But those kids aren't experiencing the same IQ effects. Surely this suggests that something else is a bigger factor?

ivan888 5y ago
I imagine frequency and budget of renovations in older housing influences the degree of lead exposure from paint. Poorer neighborhoods may have housing units with largely original (or old enough to contain lead) paint, whereas richer neighborhoods would have a larger proportion of high quality renovations which would eliminate some of the lead paint
LordDragonfang 5y ago
Wealthy people are more likely to have good childcare (nannies, after school activities) where kids spend less time unsupervised and able to, for example, eat paint chips. For that matter, stuff like chipped paint is less likely to be left in a deteriorating state by more affluent owners.
- dionidium 5y ago
  Just as a matter of common sense and gut-check plausibility, what are we talking about when we talk about "eating paint chips?" Does eating a couple flakes lower your IQ in a measurable way? Seems very unlikely. What are we talking about, then? Do we imagine kids to be shoveling paint chips into their mouth day after day? Surely that's a pretty small number of children (if it's any), nowhere near enough to suggest generational, cohort-level effects. So what is it that we really think is happening here?
  - jasonfarnon 5y ago
    My personal experience as a landlord: kids putting their mouths on rails and banisters that are at the level of their mouths. Vivid memories of kids standing around just hanging out on the deck (pre-Internet obviously) with their mouth on the rail. "Does eating a couple flakes lower your IQ in a measurable way? Seems very unlikely." Like asking about the effect of a little second-hand smoke. Probably not a measurable effect, but many people would not be consoled by the inability of the data to register an effect.
  - erosenbe0 5y ago
    It's from dust on surfaces, toys, and hand to mouth. All toddlers should be tested. There is no surety! Any soils or dust could be contaminated from the heyday of leaded gasoline and paint.
  - LordDragonfang 5y ago
    It's not just chips, but also dust. Regardless, it has enough effect for the CDC to have a page about it: https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/paint.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/paint.htm The study in the OP also specifically calls it out: >Our estimates, based on leaded gasoline consumption, may also have underpredicted high-lead exposures owing to leaded paints and pipes, which tend to aggregate within particular communities (e.g., those with high rates of homes with lead service lines and lead paint in disrepair).
- sacrosancty 5y ago
  Unemployed people don't need nannies, and they're the poorest. I think you're deliberately avoiding saying that poor people abuse their children, which is true. It's not much about affording anything.
sacrosancty 5y ago
It's only 3 IQ points, 1/5 of a standard deviation so not really massive. Of course there are much bigger effects on IQ such as the factors that cause low income children, and people in poor countries to have low IQs which swamp the lead effect.
jounker 5y ago
If you have money, and it’s your house then you get the old paint stripped when you repaint. If you are buying a home, and there is lead paint, then you negotiate down on the price to compensate for removal. Landlords of shitty apartments or houses just slap a new coat of the cheapest possible paint over the old.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Most realtors in Boston don’t bring up lead. There’s a big culture of don’t ask don’t tell.
- kortilla 5y ago
  That doesn’t explain it though because lead paint covered by regular paint is quite safe unless your children eat chunks of the wall (quite possible).
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Eating chunks of intact wall is unlikely, but surfaces like window sills are very risky because they constantly flake. That’s the nuance of lead mitigation. You can be completely compliant and safe for children with some lead paint on intact walls. Any tenant can force their landlord to remove lead in those high risk areas (at landlords expense!) if there’s a young child but few renters know about this option.
    - erosenbe0 5y ago
      Not true. Abatement is required. That is not the same as removal. Lead blocker paint or otherwise taking the surface out of contact is usual solution.
      - thehappypm 5y ago
        I don’t see what was untrue. Abatement still leaves lead paint on the walls. It’s a misconception that lead compliance means “no lead in house”.
dot1x 5y ago
That's because there's this quite "sticky" situation of not every human being being the same. Nobody likes to talk about it and you get shunned or imprisoned for even thinking about it, but the world has actually groups of people with varying levels of intelligence.

ivan888 5y ago

I imagine frequency and budget of renovations in older housing influences the degree of lead exposure from paint. Poorer neighborhoods may have housing units with largely original (or old enough to contain lead) paint, whereas richer neighborhoods would have a larger proportion of high quality renovations which would eliminate some of the lead paint

LordDragonfang 5y ago

Wealthy people are more likely to have good childcare (nannies, after school activities) where kids spend less time unsupervised and able to, for example, eat paint chips. For that matter, stuff like chipped paint is less likely to be left in a deteriorating state by more affluent owners.

dionidium 5y ago
Just as a matter of common sense and gut-check plausibility, what are we talking about when we talk about "eating paint chips?" Does eating a couple flakes lower your IQ in a measurable way? Seems very unlikely. What are we talking about, then? Do we imagine kids to be shoveling paint chips into their mouth day after day? Surely that's a pretty small number of children (if it's any), nowhere near enough to suggest generational, cohort-level effects. So what is it that we really think is happening here?
- jasonfarnon 5y ago
  My personal experience as a landlord: kids putting their mouths on rails and banisters that are at the level of their mouths. Vivid memories of kids standing around just hanging out on the deck (pre-Internet obviously) with their mouth on the rail. "Does eating a couple flakes lower your IQ in a measurable way? Seems very unlikely." Like asking about the effect of a little second-hand smoke. Probably not a measurable effect, but many people would not be consoled by the inability of the data to register an effect.
- erosenbe0 5y ago
  It's from dust on surfaces, toys, and hand to mouth. All toddlers should be tested. There is no surety! Any soils or dust could be contaminated from the heyday of leaded gasoline and paint.
- LordDragonfang 5y ago
  It's not just chips, but also dust. Regardless, it has enough effect for the CDC to have a page about it: https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/paint.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/paint.htm The study in the OP also specifically calls it out: >Our estimates, based on leaded gasoline consumption, may also have underpredicted high-lead exposures owing to leaded paints and pipes, which tend to aggregate within particular communities (e.g., those with high rates of homes with lead service lines and lead paint in disrepair).
sacrosancty 5y ago
Unemployed people don't need nannies, and they're the poorest. I think you're deliberately avoiding saying that poor people abuse their children, which is true. It's not much about affording anything.

sacrosancty 5y ago

It's only 3 IQ points, 1/5 of a standard deviation so not really massive. Of course there are much bigger effects on IQ such as the factors that cause low income children, and people in poor countries to have low IQs which swamp the lead effect.

jounker 5y ago

If you have money, and it’s your house then you get the old paint stripped when you repaint. If you are buying a home, and there is lead paint, then you negotiate down on the price to compensate for removal. Landlords of shitty apartments or houses just slap a new coat of the cheapest possible paint over the old.

thehappypm 5y ago
Most realtors in Boston don’t bring up lead. There’s a big culture of don’t ask don’t tell.
kortilla 5y ago
That doesn’t explain it though because lead paint covered by regular paint is quite safe unless your children eat chunks of the wall (quite possible).
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Eating chunks of intact wall is unlikely, but surfaces like window sills are very risky because they constantly flake. That’s the nuance of lead mitigation. You can be completely compliant and safe for children with some lead paint on intact walls. Any tenant can force their landlord to remove lead in those high risk areas (at landlords expense!) if there’s a young child but few renters know about this option.
  - erosenbe0 5y ago
    Not true. Abatement is required. That is not the same as removal. Lead blocker paint or otherwise taking the surface out of contact is usual solution.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      I don’t see what was untrue. Abatement still leaves lead paint on the walls. It’s a misconception that lead compliance means “no lead in house”.

dot1x 5y ago

That's because there's this quite "sticky" situation of not every human being being the same. Nobody likes to talk about it and you get shunned or imprisoned for even thinking about it, but the world has actually groups of people with varying levels of intelligence.