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If you don't actually have moral values then you're merely acting according to various pressures. I don't think this decision is good (not selling to Russians)

by slibhb 5y ago

If you don't actually have moral values then you're merely acting according to various pressures. I don't think this decision is good (not selling to Russians) but we can imagine much worse decisions that follow from companies yielding to, say, social pressure.

lmkg 5y ago
A corporation is a legal simulacrum of a person. Personally I think the best you can hope for is a simulacrum of morality. I really do view them as automata, without an "internal personhood," and I think that influencing their behavior with external influences is a desirable and achievable goal. Government sanctions are applied by a democratically-elected government, which has a variety of checks and balances in it. I agree that social pressure can go off the rails. In this particular case my gut is that social pressure is encouraging them to go along with the sanctions quickly and enthusiastically.
- slibhb 5y ago
  > Government sanctions are applied by a democratically-elected government, which has a variety of checks and balances in it. I agree that social pressure can go off the rails. In this particular case my gut is that social pressure is encouraging them to go along with the sanctions quickly and enthusiastically. Is Red Hat responding to sanctions? I don't think so: > (from the link) While relevant sanctions must guide many of our actions, we’ve taken additional measures as a company. Effective immediately, Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and Belarus (for both organizations located in or headquartered in Russia or Belarus). This includes discontinuing partner relationships with organizations based in or headquartered in Russia or Belarus. What we're seeing is the social outrage machine taking its turn at geopolitics. We'll see how that goes but I am not optimistic. I don't think any of this helps Ukraine but I'm more worried about the precedent it sets.
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    So, for starters, they explicitly say that sanctions guide their actions, and they're also doing things in addition. As was already explained, it's the obvious play - why would you continue to pursue business in Russia right now? How are you going to get paid? Second, "social outrage machine" is a pretty ridiculous characterization. You're painting this as if it's some Twitter mob upset about a minor grievance as opposed to the reality that a hostile country is committing war crimes.
    - slibhb 5y ago
      > why would you continue to pursue business in Russia right now? How are you going to get paid? Even if this is true, is it a good thing? Do we want sanctions that make it impossible to do business with a Russian citizen or company? Do we want companies to go beyond government sanctions? > Second, "social outrage machine" is a pretty ridiculous characterization. You're painting this as if it's some Twitter mob upset about a minor grievance as opposed to the reality that a hostile country is committing war crimes. It has not been established that Russia has committed war crimes. The social pressure brought to bear has the character of a twitter mob, it's as thoughtful, and I worry the consequences will be similar (bad). There's something to be said for ratcheting up sanctions slowly. If you go all-in at once, the country being sanctioned has no incentive to change their behavior. There's also something undeniably weird about companies interfering in international relations.
      - rurp 5y ago
        > There's something to be said for ratcheting up sanctions slowly. If you go all-in at once, the country being sanctioned has no incentive to change their behavior. I couldn't disagree more strongly. Russia is murdering thousands of people per day. Every day, including today. This is not the time for plodding deliberation. Quick action has the possibility of saving millions of homes and thousands of lives. The cause of the sanctions is crystal clear. If Russia wants the sanctions to end they need to stop invading another country and murdering its citizens. > There's also something undeniably weird about companies interfering in international relations. Cutting off business relations is exactly how sanctions work. This happens both through explicit rules and implicit ones. Companies err on the side of leaving the sanctioned country to avoid compliance headaches, the risk of accidentally violating sanctions, and to avoid funding a murderous dictator. All of this is a normal and expected part of how sanctions work.
jelling 5y ago
Making people comply with moral values they wouldn't otherwise comply with is the super-glue holding society together. One can wish all day long that someone like Putin would be a decent human being, but otherwise social and financial pressures are the only non-lethal option for dealing with him. This extends down to your neighborhood or office level criminal as well.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gautamdivgi 5y ago
fwiw I find this moral outrage quite selective. The Saudi's bomb civilians in yemen but everyone is good with that. I really can't imagine what the Ukranians are going through right now sitting at my cushy desk. But that's a horror all victims of war face. A few years ago there was a Hungarian journalist tripping fleeing Syrians and other victims of war and there was this huge debate as to why those refugees were not welcome. No debate now obviously.
- Thlom 5y ago
  The Saudis bomb Yemen with cluster bombs made in the US with US agreement while at the same time the US sits in the UN and declare cluster bombs an abomination when used by the Russians. The hypocrisy is mind blowing.
yellowapple 5y ago
The purely sociopathic interpretation would be that moral values are themselves actions according to various pressures. Or do those pressures not count when they take forms like "treat others how you'd like to be treated" or "thou shalt not kill"?

by slibhb 5y ago

lmkg 5y ago

A corporation is a legal simulacrum of a person. Personally I think the best you can hope for is a simulacrum of morality. I really do view them as automata, without an "internal personhood," and I think that influencing their behavior with external influences is a desirable and achievable goal. Government sanctions are applied by a democratically-elected government, which has a variety of checks and balances in it. I agree that social pressure can go off the rails. In this particular case my gut is that social pressure is encouraging them to go along with the sanctions quickly and enthusiastically.

slibhb 5y ago
> Government sanctions are applied by a democratically-elected government, which has a variety of checks and balances in it. I agree that social pressure can go off the rails. In this particular case my gut is that social pressure is encouraging them to go along with the sanctions quickly and enthusiastically. Is Red Hat responding to sanctions? I don't think so: > (from the link) While relevant sanctions must guide many of our actions, we’ve taken additional measures as a company. Effective immediately, Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and Belarus (for both organizations located in or headquartered in Russia or Belarus). This includes discontinuing partner relationships with organizations based in or headquartered in Russia or Belarus. What we're seeing is the social outrage machine taking its turn at geopolitics. We'll see how that goes but I am not optimistic. I don't think any of this helps Ukraine but I'm more worried about the precedent it sets.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  So, for starters, they explicitly say that sanctions guide their actions, and they're also doing things in addition. As was already explained, it's the obvious play - why would you continue to pursue business in Russia right now? How are you going to get paid? Second, "social outrage machine" is a pretty ridiculous characterization. You're painting this as if it's some Twitter mob upset about a minor grievance as opposed to the reality that a hostile country is committing war crimes.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    > why would you continue to pursue business in Russia right now? How are you going to get paid? Even if this is true, is it a good thing? Do we want sanctions that make it impossible to do business with a Russian citizen or company? Do we want companies to go beyond government sanctions? > Second, "social outrage machine" is a pretty ridiculous characterization. You're painting this as if it's some Twitter mob upset about a minor grievance as opposed to the reality that a hostile country is committing war crimes. It has not been established that Russia has committed war crimes. The social pressure brought to bear has the character of a twitter mob, it's as thoughtful, and I worry the consequences will be similar (bad). There's something to be said for ratcheting up sanctions slowly. If you go all-in at once, the country being sanctioned has no incentive to change their behavior. There's also something undeniably weird about companies interfering in international relations.
    - rurp 5y ago
      > There's something to be said for ratcheting up sanctions slowly. If you go all-in at once, the country being sanctioned has no incentive to change their behavior. I couldn't disagree more strongly. Russia is murdering thousands of people per day. Every day, including today. This is not the time for plodding deliberation. Quick action has the possibility of saving millions of homes and thousands of lives. The cause of the sanctions is crystal clear. If Russia wants the sanctions to end they need to stop invading another country and murdering its citizens. > There's also something undeniably weird about companies interfering in international relations. Cutting off business relations is exactly how sanctions work. This happens both through explicit rules and implicit ones. Companies err on the side of leaving the sanctioned country to avoid compliance headaches, the risk of accidentally violating sanctions, and to avoid funding a murderous dictator. All of this is a normal and expected part of how sanctions work.

jelling 5y ago

Making people comply with moral values they wouldn't otherwise comply with is the super-glue holding society together. One can wish all day long that someone like Putin would be a decent human being, but otherwise social and financial pressures are the only non-lethal option for dealing with him. This extends down to your neighborhood or office level criminal as well.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gautamdivgi 5y ago

fwiw I find this moral outrage quite selective. The Saudi's bomb civilians in yemen but everyone is good with that. I really can't imagine what the Ukranians are going through right now sitting at my cushy desk. But that's a horror all victims of war face. A few years ago there was a Hungarian journalist tripping fleeing Syrians and other victims of war and there was this huge debate as to why those refugees were not welcome. No debate now obviously.

Thlom 5y ago
The Saudis bomb Yemen with cluster bombs made in the US with US agreement while at the same time the US sits in the UN and declare cluster bombs an abomination when used by the Russians. The hypocrisy is mind blowing.

yellowapple 5y ago

The purely sociopathic interpretation would be that moral values are themselves actions according to various pressures. Or do those pressures not count when they take forms like "treat others how you'd like to be treated" or "thou shalt not kill"?