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> Reminder that the goal is hinderance of aggression by the Russian government, not punishment of the Russian people. Is it? Or is the goal to turn the people

> Reminder that the goal is hinderance of aggression by the Russian government, not punishment of the Russian people. Is it? Or is the goal to turn the people of Russia against the Russian government for putting them into this position, perhaps even triggering regime change.

brabel 5y ago
You know, it was pretty clear that Russia was willing to go to war to stop Ukraine joining NATO. They said so multiple times since the first time the objective was announced, in 2008 I think, which was followed by the Russian war on Georgia for the same reason... and the annexation of Krimea also had the same root cause... so I am convinced the war could have been stopped, but the West made absolutely no effort to do so. Do you remember when Russia sent the "ultimatum" to the USA and the answer was that none of the Russian demands even merited consideration? They knew then that this response would lead to a war. Therefore, I believe there's reason to believe the West willingly allowed Russia to enter this war, perhaps with exact this goal: causing Russia to go broke (similar to what happened to the USSR in Afghanistan, which was also assisted heavily by the West at the time) over a gigantic conflict (and sanctions), forcing a regime change in Russia, finally, at the cost of a totally destroyed Ukraine. Maybe the West thought the cost (thousands of Ukrainians and Russian dead, two destroyed economies, another generation of people who can't trust their neighbours anymore, increased military spending) was acceptable?
- nybble41 5y ago
  > … so I am convinced the war could have been stopped, but the West made absolutely no effort to do so. Conspiracy theories aside, avoiding war at all costs by capitulating to the aggressor's demands without a fight is not a sustainable approach. Sure, Russia was strongly and publicly opposed to Ukraine joining NATO, to the point of threatening war over it… but that isn't their decision to make. Russia is still the unjustified invader here and the only one at fault—not Ukraine for seeking NATO membership or the other NATO members for considering the application.
  - brabel 5y ago
    I disagree because I am not saying NATO should capitulate... just that when you don't compromise in any way even when it's in your own interest to do so just because you believe you have all leverage in the world, and then the strategy backfires, that you should take some responsibility as well.
    - somethingwitty1 5y ago
      I'm really confused on what you are trying to make a point on. Your statement was NATO should have not allowed Ukraine membership based on the threats from Russia of war. NATO did not allow Ukraine membership and even stated as much that Ukraine likely could never be a member. Russia got what they wanted. So what compromise was NATO not willing to make? It feels like you are trying mental gymnastics to give a pass to a country starting a war. Russia is to blame, full stop. Russia should have no say in how Ukraine wants to move forward or the alliances they want to make. Russia is free to voice their concerns or better yet, provide better assurances and protection to Ukraine than what NATO could offer. Instead, they invaded. No one is at fault for that other than Russia.
      - brabel 5y ago
        > I'm really confused on what you are trying to make a point on. My point is simple: Ukraine should've done what Sweden is doing and strategically make sure its territory is safe while at the same time avoiding direct confrontation with other nations. Ukraine and NATO failed to do so and we're now seeing the result of their miscalculation. Of course Russia is to blame as well, as they're the ones that Ukraine was trying to defend against, I'm not claiming otherwise. Even though the NATO-Ukraine story goes back to 1992, let's look at the events leading up to the war: On 8 June 2017, Ukraine's Verkhovna Rada passed a law making integration with NATO a foreign policy priority (https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/427216.html https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/427216.html). On 14 September 2020, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, "which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Presidency_of_Volodymyr_Zelensky_(from_2019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations... ). 09 Feb 2021 - Alliance Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg confirmed during Prime Minister Shmyhal's visit to Brussels that Ukraine is a candidate for NATO membership (https://www.kmu.gov.ua/news/premyer-ministr-ta-gensek-nato-obgovorili-podalshi-kroki-na-shlyahu-yevroatlantichnoyi-integraciyi-ukrayini https://www.kmu.gov.ua/news/premyer-ministr-ta-gensek-nato-o...) 24 March 2021 - Ukraine announces measures to take back Crimea from Russia (https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3214479-zelensky-enacts-strategy-for-deoccupation-and-reintegration-of-crimea.html https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3214479-zelensky-e...) 25 March 2021 - Russia starts military operations near Ukraine's border (which would lead to the war, almost one year later). It's also relevant to notice that the Euromaidan protests in early 2014 were sparked by the then Pro-Russian Governement in Ukraine decision to move away from NATO and the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan) under pressure from Russia... that Russia had strongly opposed NATO membership by Ukraine should be crystal clear. That the new Ukrainian Government's decision to antagonize Russia and pursue as strongly as possible membership of NATO should also be crystal clear... hence my point that Ukraine behaved irresponsibly with regards to avoid Russian agression, ironically, while trying to prevent exactly that.
- LosWochosWeek 5y ago
  I'm really curious how some people can bend their own minds in such a way that Russia invading a sovereign country is somehow the fault of "The West". With all due respect, there was nothing to negotiate. Practically every world leader came to Putin's virtual doorsteps and tried to negotiate. Olaf Scholz even hinted at the fact that Ukraine wont be able to join NATO anyways bc of various reasons. But none of that helped. Putin has nuclear bombs. If we were to bend to his will bc he threatened to invade Ukraine, then we might as well pack our stuff, bc he has bigger threats. I can already see the messages on our post-nuclear-winter internet "Well, Proto-Putin threatened to start a nuclear war. The West had every chance to just allow him to crown himself Godking of Earth. This was the West's fault!". I'm sorry but your worldview is cynical. > so I am convinced the war could have been stopped, Yes, by Putin. But he didnt. And that's somehow the fault of the West, I guess?
- ciceryadam 5y ago
  http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598 Vladimir Putin: I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.
- jafoi 5y ago
  What detonated the conflict was Zelensky threatening to leave the Budapest Memorandum. Of course you won't hear that anywhere :)

brabel 5y ago

You know, it was pretty clear that Russia was willing to go to war to stop Ukraine joining NATO. They said so multiple times since the first time the objective was announced, in 2008 I think, which was followed by the Russian war on Georgia for the same reason... and the annexation of Krimea also had the same root cause... so I am convinced the war could have been stopped, but the West made absolutely no effort to do so. Do you remember when Russia sent the "ultimatum" to the USA and the answer was that none of the Russian demands even merited consideration? They knew then that this response would lead to a war. Therefore, I believe there's reason to believe the West willingly allowed Russia to enter this war, perhaps with exact this goal: causing Russia to go broke (similar to what happened to the USSR in Afghanistan, which was also assisted heavily by the West at the time) over a gigantic conflict (and sanctions), forcing a regime change in Russia, finally, at the cost of a totally destroyed Ukraine. Maybe the West thought the cost (thousands of Ukrainians and Russian dead, two destroyed economies, another generation of people who can't trust their neighbours anymore, increased military spending) was acceptable?

nybble41 5y ago
> … so I am convinced the war could have been stopped, but the West made absolutely no effort to do so. Conspiracy theories aside, avoiding war at all costs by capitulating to the aggressor's demands without a fight is not a sustainable approach. Sure, Russia was strongly and publicly opposed to Ukraine joining NATO, to the point of threatening war over it… but that isn't their decision to make. Russia is still the unjustified invader here and the only one at fault—not Ukraine for seeking NATO membership or the other NATO members for considering the application.
- brabel 5y ago
  I disagree because I am not saying NATO should capitulate... just that when you don't compromise in any way even when it's in your own interest to do so just because you believe you have all leverage in the world, and then the strategy backfires, that you should take some responsibility as well.
  - somethingwitty1 5y ago
    I'm really confused on what you are trying to make a point on. Your statement was NATO should have not allowed Ukraine membership based on the threats from Russia of war. NATO did not allow Ukraine membership and even stated as much that Ukraine likely could never be a member. Russia got what they wanted. So what compromise was NATO not willing to make? It feels like you are trying mental gymnastics to give a pass to a country starting a war. Russia is to blame, full stop. Russia should have no say in how Ukraine wants to move forward or the alliances they want to make. Russia is free to voice their concerns or better yet, provide better assurances and protection to Ukraine than what NATO could offer. Instead, they invaded. No one is at fault for that other than Russia.
    - brabel 5y ago
      > I'm really confused on what you are trying to make a point on. My point is simple: Ukraine should've done what Sweden is doing and strategically make sure its territory is safe while at the same time avoiding direct confrontation with other nations. Ukraine and NATO failed to do so and we're now seeing the result of their miscalculation. Of course Russia is to blame as well, as they're the ones that Ukraine was trying to defend against, I'm not claiming otherwise. Even though the NATO-Ukraine story goes back to 1992, let's look at the events leading up to the war: On 8 June 2017, Ukraine's Verkhovna Rada passed a law making integration with NATO a foreign policy priority (https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/427216.html https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/427216.html). On 14 September 2020, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, "which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Presidency_of_Volodymyr_Zelensky_(from_2019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations... ). 09 Feb 2021 - Alliance Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg confirmed during Prime Minister Shmyhal's visit to Brussels that Ukraine is a candidate for NATO membership (https://www.kmu.gov.ua/news/premyer-ministr-ta-gensek-nato-obgovorili-podalshi-kroki-na-shlyahu-yevroatlantichnoyi-integraciyi-ukrayini https://www.kmu.gov.ua/news/premyer-ministr-ta-gensek-nato-o...) 24 March 2021 - Ukraine announces measures to take back Crimea from Russia (https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3214479-zelensky-enacts-strategy-for-deoccupation-and-reintegration-of-crimea.html https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3214479-zelensky-e...) 25 March 2021 - Russia starts military operations near Ukraine's border (which would lead to the war, almost one year later). It's also relevant to notice that the Euromaidan protests in early 2014 were sparked by the then Pro-Russian Governement in Ukraine decision to move away from NATO and the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan) under pressure from Russia... that Russia had strongly opposed NATO membership by Ukraine should be crystal clear. That the new Ukrainian Government's decision to antagonize Russia and pursue as strongly as possible membership of NATO should also be crystal clear... hence my point that Ukraine behaved irresponsibly with regards to avoid Russian agression, ironically, while trying to prevent exactly that.
LosWochosWeek 5y ago
I'm really curious how some people can bend their own minds in such a way that Russia invading a sovereign country is somehow the fault of "The West". With all due respect, there was nothing to negotiate. Practically every world leader came to Putin's virtual doorsteps and tried to negotiate. Olaf Scholz even hinted at the fact that Ukraine wont be able to join NATO anyways bc of various reasons. But none of that helped. Putin has nuclear bombs. If we were to bend to his will bc he threatened to invade Ukraine, then we might as well pack our stuff, bc he has bigger threats. I can already see the messages on our post-nuclear-winter internet "Well, Proto-Putin threatened to start a nuclear war. The West had every chance to just allow him to crown himself Godking of Earth. This was the West's fault!". I'm sorry but your worldview is cynical. > so I am convinced the war could have been stopped, Yes, by Putin. But he didnt. And that's somehow the fault of the West, I guess?
ciceryadam 5y ago
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598 Vladimir Putin: I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.
jafoi 5y ago
What detonated the conflict was Zelensky threatening to leave the Budapest Memorandum. Of course you won't hear that anywhere :)