4 ms·

I've read so many people in this forum of all places that seem very content screwing over regular Russians.

by jafoi 5y ago

michaelmrose 5y ago
This is unsurprising. Everyone is watching mass murder live on the internet. A lot of us want our nations to step in and start shooting which is complicated by the potential for nuclear armageddon thus the Russian people are a proxy for russia soldiers they would gladly see met in battle. If you look at present day Germany redemption is certainly possible even if it takes 50 years or so.
- jafoi 5y ago
  This is a very American point of view. I don't think anybody here in Europe in the last decades has looked at Germans with contempt for what Nazis did. It's absolutely ridiculous.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Yes its been 77 years now. I wouldn't expect normalization after mass murder and threatening to nuke everyone next year or in the next 10.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      I don't think he's talking about something 77 years ago vs. now. He want's to describe the association to the generalization. Eg. Nazi vs Germans. And Russians vs. 'Putin's Russians?'. I don't know how to describe it better. The description of the problem at hand could have been better, but I do agree it's an issue. I know the difference between the groups. But it could be confusing for someone else who is eg. Russian and they could feel offended.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    How would you call Putin's "clan"? Most people here realize we are talking about "Putin's Russians" and not ordinary Russians. But ordinary Russians are aiding Putin too and I know some try to protest under harsh conditions ( jail) or are fleeing Russia. Eg. I don't consider Russian people living abroad the same as the one that are aiding Putin. And most definitely not the elite that are doing it with knowledge of the complete situation. But one of the problems is that there's not really a word to describe that 'group' or any of those above mentioned groups. PS. To share a POV, I asked a Russian friend how she is doing and if she had troubles in 'her social environment' here in Belgium. She said there wasn't an issue. I don't know if I can generalize that though.
    - definataly 5y ago
      how about 'nomenklatura' by analogy to the soviet times?
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        Someone mentioned Vatnyk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik_(slang) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik_(slang) > Vatnik or vatnyk (Russian: ватник) is a political slur,[1][2] used in Russia and other post-Soviet states based on an internet meme that was introduced in 2011 by Anton Chadskiy, which denotes a steadfast jingoistic follower of propaganda from the Russian government.[3]
jotm 5y ago
On the one hand, more than half of Russians support or are indifferent to the war. On the other hand, a government change is the only thing that Ukraine, and the world needs. All the warmongering idiots will pretty much fall in line, just like the Trumpists (US) and antivaxxers (worldwide) do.
gruturo 5y ago
I hate that this is hurting regular Russians. But I don't have an alternative suggestion which hits only the oligarchs [1], and I understand the cruel logic of making regular Russians so unhappy they overthrow that shitshow they have in place of a government. [1] Actually I do, cut all russian gas and oil imports right now, no matter how painful, and apply sanctions to anyone who continues trading russian gas and oil, no matter if friend or foe, big or small. Soften the financial blow to the lower and middle class with some progressive tax, offer large incentives to build wind, solar, EV chargers, heat pumps, better thermal insulation of homes, etc. I'm oversimplifying, and sharper minds would be needed to improve the basic idea and close exploitable loopholes, but it would be doable if we really, really wanted. The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped.
- definataly 5y ago
  > The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped. Were were you when the killing of innocent Russians was taking place in 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donbass/a-42597692 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donba... What would you think if a region in Europe belonging to a larger country clamored for independence but was crushed by the military and by sanctioned militias which are antisemitic and right wing radicals? https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_political_parties_and_groups/ https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_... How much do you really know about May 2nd 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2-2014/a-18425200 https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2... About the ties between radical anti-democratic para-military groups, the US and Ukraine? https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... I don't know much, but would be surprised if it's as simple as: Russia = BAD, Ukraine = GOOD. note that I'm not saying Russia is innocent or justified. Their war is unjustified and an atrocity. But Ukraine is not a beacon of democracy, respect and peace either. They are a country whose government has supported radical and violent tactics against some of its own ethnic groups. Neither Russian nor Ukrainian civilians deserve any of this. In my opinion, protests, and sanctions should be very targeted (at leaders, companies and groups participating in these violent attacks: Now Russians ones, a few years ago Ukrainian ones).

I've read so many people in this forum of all places that seem very content screwing over regular Russians.

by jafoi 5y ago

I've read so many people in this forum of all places that seem very content screwing over regular Russians.

This is unsurprising. Everyone is watching mass murder live on the internet. A lot of us want our nations to step in and start shooting which is complicated by the potential for nuclear armageddon thus the Russian people are a proxy for russia soldiers they would gladly see met in battle. If you look at present day Germany redemption is certainly possible even if it takes 50 years or so.

jafoi 5y ago
This is a very American point of view. I don't think anybody here in Europe in the last decades has looked at Germans with contempt for what Nazis did. It's absolutely ridiculous.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Yes its been 77 years now. I wouldn't expect normalization after mass murder and threatening to nuke everyone next year or in the next 10.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    I don't think he's talking about something 77 years ago vs. now. He want's to describe the association to the generalization. Eg. Nazi vs Germans. And Russians vs. 'Putin's Russians?'. I don't know how to describe it better. The description of the problem at hand could have been better, but I do agree it's an issue. I know the difference between the groups. But it could be confusing for someone else who is eg. Russian and they could feel offended.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  How would you call Putin's "clan"? Most people here realize we are talking about "Putin's Russians" and not ordinary Russians. But ordinary Russians are aiding Putin too and I know some try to protest under harsh conditions ( jail) or are fleeing Russia. Eg. I don't consider Russian people living abroad the same as the one that are aiding Putin. And most definitely not the elite that are doing it with knowledge of the complete situation. But one of the problems is that there's not really a word to describe that 'group' or any of those above mentioned groups. PS. To share a POV, I asked a Russian friend how she is doing and if she had troubles in 'her social environment' here in Belgium. She said there wasn't an issue. I don't know if I can generalize that though.
  - definataly 5y ago
    how about 'nomenklatura' by analogy to the soviet times?
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Someone mentioned Vatnyk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik_(slang) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik_(slang) > Vatnik or vatnyk (Russian: ватник) is a political slur,[1][2] used in Russia and other post-Soviet states based on an internet meme that was introduced in 2011 by Anton Chadskiy, which denotes a steadfast jingoistic follower of propaganda from the Russian government.[3]

jotm 5y ago

On the one hand, more than half of Russians support or are indifferent to the war. On the other hand, a government change is the only thing that Ukraine, and the world needs. All the warmongering idiots will pretty much fall in line, just like the Trumpists (US) and antivaxxers (worldwide) do.

gruturo 5y ago

I hate that this is hurting regular Russians. But I don't have an alternative suggestion which hits only the oligarchs [1], and I understand the cruel logic of making regular Russians so unhappy they overthrow that shitshow they have in place of a government. [1] Actually I do, cut all russian gas and oil imports right now, no matter how painful, and apply sanctions to anyone who continues trading russian gas and oil, no matter if friend or foe, big or small. Soften the financial blow to the lower and middle class with some progressive tax, offer large incentives to build wind, solar, EV chargers, heat pumps, better thermal insulation of homes, etc. I'm oversimplifying, and sharper minds would be needed to improve the basic idea and close exploitable loopholes, but it would be doable if we really, really wanted. The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped.

definataly 5y ago
> The killing of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped. Were were you when the killing of innocent Russians was taking place in 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donbass/a-42597692 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-forgotten-victims-of-donba... What would you think if a region in Europe belonging to a larger country clamored for independence but was crushed by the military and by sanctioned militias which are antisemitic and right wing radicals? https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_political_parties_and_groups/ https://civic-nation.org/ukraine/society/radical_right-wing_... How much do you really know about May 2nd 2014? https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2-2014/a-18425200 https://www.dw.com/en/the-odessa-file-what-happened-on-may-2... About the ties between radical anti-democratic para-military groups, the US and Ukraine? https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... I don't know much, but would be surprised if it's as simple as: Russia = BAD, Ukraine = GOOD. note that I'm not saying Russia is innocent or justified. Their war is unjustified and an atrocity. But Ukraine is not a beacon of democracy, respect and peace either. They are a country whose government has supported radical and violent tactics against some of its own ethnic groups. Neither Russian nor Ukrainian civilians deserve any of this. In my opinion, protests, and sanctions should be very targeted (at leaders, companies and groups participating in these violent attacks: Now Russians ones, a few years ago Ukrainian ones).