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NATO a purely defensive alliance. They do never attack first. Why would anyone feel threatened by them? Let's google NATO military operations.. Wait a minute!

stickyricky 5y ago
Can you point to a NATO military operation which was A). offensive and B). not unanimously requested by the UN security council (on which Russia and China sit)?
- rhcom2 5y ago
  I believe there is only one, the bombing of Yugoslavia.
  - riku_iki 5y ago
    What about Afghanistan and Iraq?
    - bbatha 5y ago
      NATO was not involved in Iraq, though many members were under the banner of the "coalition of the willing". Afghanistan was not an offensive war but mutual defense invoked over article 5. We can debate whether that covered the duration of the war, but when article 5 was invoked it was not seen as controversial nor viewed as an offensive war.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > NATO was not involved in Iraq, though many members were under the banner of the "coalition of the willing". The “coalition of the willing” was largely propaganda; only four countries (3 of which were NATO members) were involved in the invasion.
      - rascul 5y ago
        > Afghanistan was not an offensive war but mutual defense invoked over article 5. We can debate whether that covered the duration of the war, but when article 5 was invoked it was not seen as controversial nor viewed as an offensive war. I have heard this said before, but it was never explained to me how invading another country is considered defense and not offense.
        type0 5y ago
        That's basically the argument Putin is using for invading Ukraine, the best defense is offense
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      Afghanistan was not an offensive NATO operation (being a direct response to an attack on a NATO member), and was supported by a unanimous UNSC Resolution (1368). NATO never conducted an offensive operation in Iraq, though some NATO members (separate from the alliance) did.
      - riku_iki 5y ago
        > Afghanistan was not an offensive NATO operation (being a direct response to an attack on a NATO member) Though Taliban didn't attack US. Also, was there any NATO due process for this? > was supported by a unanimous UNSC Resolution (1368) I think that resolution said nothing about invasion into Afghanistan..
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Defining “offensive” here as “not defending against an actual or imminent attack on a NATO member or other internatkonally-recognized state”, the NATO-Yugoslavia war of 1999 would qualify as it was not requested by the UNSC at all. Also Libya was 10-0-5 in the UNSC, with both Russia and China abstaining (P5 abstentions are special, in that they are conventionally construed as negative votes but declination to exercise veto, which is not formally a separate action from a regular no vote.)
  - riku_iki 5y ago
    > Also Libya was 10-0-5 in the UNSC Resolution was about no fly zone, and stopping attacks on civilians. It is a subject of discussion if NATO expanded operation to extra actions.
- AndyMcConachie 5y ago
  NATO completely destroyed the country of Libya.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    They literally asked for NATO to stay/help longer: > Fighting in Libya ended in late October following the death of Muammar Gaddafi, and NATO stated it would end operations over Libya on 31 October 2011. Libya's new government requested that its mission be extended to the end of the year,[39] but on 27 October, the Security Council unanimously voted to end NATO's mandate for military action on 31 October.[40] And NATO didn't start civil unrest. After the protests, individual countries took the lead to help and other ones asked NATO to take over as condition to join ( eg. Italy).
    - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
      So the Libyans asked NATO to stay after NATO worked to kill the previous leader? You see why that doesn't pass muster right? That's like "asking" for protection from the mob after the previous owner of your shop got his legs broken.
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        Extension for 2 months was requested. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_i... > Libya's new government requested that its mission be extended to the end of the year,[39] but on 27 October, the Security Council unanimously voted to end NATO's mandate for military action on 31 October.[40] Libyan volunteers ( i suppose civilians) where literally the majority of the troops against Khadaffi ( > 200 k. ) Air support was by countries, they did not do boots on the ground. > Many states and supranational bodies condemned Gaddafi's government over disputed allegations of air attacks on civilian targets within the country. This was preceeded by a civilian uprising before any foreign country assisting.
- aleksandarbos 5y ago
  Yes, the bombing of Yugoslavia. I was 5 when that happened hiding in basement like poor Ukrainians do right now. Feel free to do some googling on your own, there are many cases like: Libya, Syria. Who will be next?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    NATO did not operate in Syria.
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    What did they expect when they were doing ethnic cleansing in Europe without having nuclear capability?
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    It is called "the NATO bombing" but not all NATO members participated. NATO's involvement was based around Article 4 which only says the member states can "consult together." This implies that it was more of a United States + select allies bombing than a NATO bombing, because the US did most of it, and got other countries to participate through means that existed independently of NATO. Why, then, would it be called the NATO bombing? Probably because A. it distances it from entities that American voters are familiar with, (compare "Bill Clinton's bombing") and B. it creates a smokescreen of weird international law issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#NATO's_charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_NATO_bombing...
    - infiniteL0Op 5y ago
      That is a bit like saying only the executor of the gang has attacked you, but they did a vote before and nobody dared stoping Clinton, and NATO shares funds don't they? So there wasn't an outcry, let alone sanctions or consequences. Everybody knows it was Clinton and advisors, the bombing was still a NATO bombing. You can't have it both ways, make the us hide behind the NATO skirt and say not everyone has participated. It goes to show the institution is biased and has no teeth other than the American ones.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Iraq (explicit condemnation from Kofi Anan), Yugoslavia (China and Russia said they would veto any resolution to send military aid), Libya (China and Russia abstained), Syria (no UN resolution, Russia firmly opposed). In fact, I don't even know of a defensive military operation from NATO. Perhaps Afghanistan could be counted?
yorwba 5y ago
You should also check out the list of wars involving Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden and notice the large overlap recently. That Sweden isn't part of the defensive alliance doesn't mean they don't participate in NATO offenses.
Aidevah 5y ago
NATO is on the side of democracy and human rights. That's why it includes countries such as Turkey which has never waged an aggressive war on the pretext of protecting its own people, and then continuing the military occupation until the present day[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Then it is a good thing that NATO is a defensive alliance and not a military alliance because the US did not show up to help Turkey when they invaded Cyprus.
ratg13 5y ago
So if China and Russia wanted to form a defensive military alliance with Mexico and start placing weapons for defense, you'd be cool with it? I'm not actually suggesting this, just pointing out the issue with your argument.
- type0 5y ago
  > So if China and Russia wanted to form a defensive military alliance with Mexico and start placing weapons for defense, you'd be cool with it? Maybe they should, when they get rid of the drug cartels.

stickyricky 5y ago

Can you point to a NATO military operation which was A). offensive and B). not unanimously requested by the UN security council (on which Russia and China sit)?

rhcom2 5y ago
I believe there is only one, the bombing of Yugoslavia.
- riku_iki 5y ago
  What about Afghanistan and Iraq?
  - bbatha 5y ago
    NATO was not involved in Iraq, though many members were under the banner of the "coalition of the willing". Afghanistan was not an offensive war but mutual defense invoked over article 5. We can debate whether that covered the duration of the war, but when article 5 was invoked it was not seen as controversial nor viewed as an offensive war.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > NATO was not involved in Iraq, though many members were under the banner of the "coalition of the willing". The “coalition of the willing” was largely propaganda; only four countries (3 of which were NATO members) were involved in the invasion.
    - rascul 5y ago
      > Afghanistan was not an offensive war but mutual defense invoked over article 5. We can debate whether that covered the duration of the war, but when article 5 was invoked it was not seen as controversial nor viewed as an offensive war. I have heard this said before, but it was never explained to me how invading another country is considered defense and not offense.
      - type0 5y ago
        That's basically the argument Putin is using for invading Ukraine, the best defense is offense
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Afghanistan was not an offensive NATO operation (being a direct response to an attack on a NATO member), and was supported by a unanimous UNSC Resolution (1368). NATO never conducted an offensive operation in Iraq, though some NATO members (separate from the alliance) did.
    - riku_iki 5y ago
      > Afghanistan was not an offensive NATO operation (being a direct response to an attack on a NATO member) Though Taliban didn't attack US. Also, was there any NATO due process for this? > was supported by a unanimous UNSC Resolution (1368) I think that resolution said nothing about invasion into Afghanistan..
dragonwriter 5y ago
Defining “offensive” here as “not defending against an actual or imminent attack on a NATO member or other internatkonally-recognized state”, the NATO-Yugoslavia war of 1999 would qualify as it was not requested by the UNSC at all. Also Libya was 10-0-5 in the UNSC, with both Russia and China abstaining (P5 abstentions are special, in that they are conventionally construed as negative votes but declination to exercise veto, which is not formally a separate action from a regular no vote.)
- riku_iki 5y ago
  > Also Libya was 10-0-5 in the UNSC Resolution was about no fly zone, and stopping attacks on civilians. It is a subject of discussion if NATO expanded operation to extra actions.
AndyMcConachie 5y ago
NATO completely destroyed the country of Libya.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  They literally asked for NATO to stay/help longer: > Fighting in Libya ended in late October following the death of Muammar Gaddafi, and NATO stated it would end operations over Libya on 31 October 2011. Libya's new government requested that its mission be extended to the end of the year,[39] but on 27 October, the Security Council unanimously voted to end NATO's mandate for military action on 31 October.[40] And NATO didn't start civil unrest. After the protests, individual countries took the lead to help and other ones asked NATO to take over as condition to join ( eg. Italy).
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    So the Libyans asked NATO to stay after NATO worked to kill the previous leader? You see why that doesn't pass muster right? That's like "asking" for protection from the mob after the previous owner of your shop got his legs broken.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Extension for 2 months was requested. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_i... > Libya's new government requested that its mission be extended to the end of the year,[39] but on 27 October, the Security Council unanimously voted to end NATO's mandate for military action on 31 October.[40] Libyan volunteers ( i suppose civilians) where literally the majority of the troops against Khadaffi ( > 200 k. ) Air support was by countries, they did not do boots on the ground. > Many states and supranational bodies condemned Gaddafi's government over disputed allegations of air attacks on civilian targets within the country. This was preceeded by a civilian uprising before any foreign country assisting.
aleksandarbos 5y ago
Yes, the bombing of Yugoslavia. I was 5 when that happened hiding in basement like poor Ukrainians do right now. Feel free to do some googling on your own, there are many cases like: Libya, Syria. Who will be next?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  NATO did not operate in Syria.
- chaostheory 5y ago
  What did they expect when they were doing ethnic cleansing in Europe without having nuclear capability?
- whatshisface 5y ago
  It is called "the NATO bombing" but not all NATO members participated. NATO's involvement was based around Article 4 which only says the member states can "consult together." This implies that it was more of a United States + select allies bombing than a NATO bombing, because the US did most of it, and got other countries to participate through means that existed independently of NATO. Why, then, would it be called the NATO bombing? Probably because A. it distances it from entities that American voters are familiar with, (compare "Bill Clinton's bombing") and B. it creates a smokescreen of weird international law issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#NATO's_charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_NATO_bombing...
  - infiniteL0Op 5y ago
    That is a bit like saying only the executor of the gang has attacked you, but they did a vote before and nobody dared stoping Clinton, and NATO shares funds don't they? So there wasn't an outcry, let alone sanctions or consequences. Everybody knows it was Clinton and advisors, the bombing was still a NATO bombing. You can't have it both ways, make the us hide behind the NATO skirt and say not everyone has participated. It goes to show the institution is biased and has no teeth other than the American ones.
tsimionescu 5y ago
Iraq (explicit condemnation from Kofi Anan), Yugoslavia (China and Russia said they would veto any resolution to send military aid), Libya (China and Russia abstained), Syria (no UN resolution, Russia firmly opposed). In fact, I don't even know of a defensive military operation from NATO. Perhaps Afghanistan could be counted?

yorwba 5y ago

You should also check out the list of wars involving Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden and notice the large overlap recently. That Sweden isn't part of the defensive alliance doesn't mean they don't participate in NATO offenses.

Aidevah 5y ago

NATO is on the side of democracy and human rights. That's why it includes countries such as Turkey which has never waged an aggressive war on the pretext of protecting its own people, and then continuing the military occupation until the present day[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

whatshisface 5y ago
Then it is a good thing that NATO is a defensive alliance and not a military alliance because the US did not show up to help Turkey when they invaded Cyprus.

ratg13 5y ago

So if China and Russia wanted to form a defensive military alliance with Mexico and start placing weapons for defense, you'd be cool with it? I'm not actually suggesting this, just pointing out the issue with your argument.

type0 5y ago
> So if China and Russia wanted to form a defensive military alliance with Mexico and start placing weapons for defense, you'd be cool with it? Maybe they should, when they get rid of the drug cartels.