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Somebody should make a list of companies that pull moves like this; Screwing over nongovernmental entities when governments make moves that they dislike. I und

Somebody should make a list of companies that pull moves like this; Screwing over nongovernmental entities when governments make moves that they dislike. I understand people wanting to deter aggression, but this is not the way. What happens when it’s your country on the other end of bad choices? Not every country can shrug it off like America did when invading Iraq.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rytis 5y ago
> I understand people wanting to deter aggression, but this is not the way. What is the way in this particular situation? What would you do?
- madengr 5y ago
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Not be a fucking hypocrite like the west is being. There are 125 armed conflicts happening right now in the world. Hell we just started bombing Somalia again. Nobody is saying a word about that.
  - diordiderot 5y ago
    If it weren't for nukes Russia would be getting bombed too
akulbe 5y ago
This concerns me, as well. I definitely want aggression deterred as well. But at what cost? It seems like there's too much power in the hands of too few. It will bite us.
- laumars 5y ago
  > It seems like there's too much power in the hands of too few. It will bite us. The balance of power has always been like that. If anything, the internet has diversified power more than it has ever been before in history.
- mvc 5y ago
  Who do you think has the power at the moment? IMO, this war has demonstrated where power really lies. And that is in the hands of the people. Do you think any politician West of Poland really wanted this economic war with Russia? Clearly, the lives of the rich and powerful would have been much easier had Zelenskeyy snuck off allowing Putin to annex a big chunk of South Eastern Ukraine like he did with Crimea. Energy bills go back down. No additional influx of refugees. Pandemic free. Peachy. So why is it happening? Because the free press is out there documenting the horrors for all to see. And it turns out that people do care. And they are fed up of the lies and the fake news. These sanctions are being made because people demand it. That is customers, individuals, employees. This is what is driving decision-making processes at the moment.
  - npteljes 5y ago
    >IMO, this war has demonstrated where power really lies. And that is in the hands of the people. I think what's huge right now is soft power. Public relations and propaganda. Social media to form groups and opinions. I'm linking a Russian example here but I'm sure there's many others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
mrits 5y ago
The nongovernmental entities often benefit from the barbaric behavior. If the people of Russia don't stand up to the aggression of their own country then they will live with the consequences. It's not like they are getting butchered in their homes like their neighbors.
- abecedarius 5y ago
  Think about results. Does it help or hurt the Russian resisters when they (and the people they need to persuade) lose most access to the free world? Sanctioning state organs and oligarchs is good and overdue, but the mob extending that to canceling all of Russian civil society seems stupid and evil to me.
  - keewee7 5y ago
    Red Hat stopping its commercial services in Russia will not harm dissenters. Besides the majority of Russians support the war. The so-called "resisters" are a rounding error. Listen to Ukrainians on social media. They're all calling for total sanctions against Russia.
  - gremlinsinc 5y ago
    Yeah, a family of 4 evacuating and executed during a planned ceasefire in an agreed humanitarian corridor is the same level of sad as Russian citizens who don't even 'accept' there 'is' a 'war' not being able to play Minecraft. People are dying, many of these people are friends, relatives, and co-workers of people living in Russia. Many Russian soldiers are dying needlessly because one - ONE man is having a end-of-life mental break. One man's pride is the cause of all of this. Just one man. Period. One man. Blame Putin for Putin's war. If you don't like suffering for one man's tantrum -- call the Kremlin. I'm sure they'd love to hear your complaints.
    - type0 5y ago
      > Blame Putin for Putin's war. If you don't like suffering for one man's tantrum -- call the Kremlin. This reminds me how people in Soviet Union wrote letters to Stalin to describe injustices and how much they love him because he is the best possible leader they could have. Putin isn't Stalin yet, but the Russian people are waiting patiently for him to become one.
lottin 5y ago
Of course, it's the way. It's the only way, other than entering into a direct armed confrontation with Russia.
pjdemers 5y ago
The difference here is nuclear weapons. We aren't able to use the normal military options against a country threatening nuclear first use. The normal military options are no-fly zones, embedded SOF and advisors, help with logistics and supply chains, etc.
throwmeariver1 5y ago
They have no choice without liquidity you can’t pay your employees and you can’t offer paid services. At the moment Russian YouTube is ad free because google wants to keep it open for information purposes but they don’t make any money from it. For other services like McDonalds this is just not feasible. McDonalds and Coke kept their stores and production longer open because they had to get rid of their perishable goods.
mvc 5y ago
We're cancelling Russia. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/opinion/putin-ukraine-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/opinion/putin-ukraine-chi... Friedman is right that this is economic war. Which I think most people will agree is preferable to nuclear war. But the principle is the same. What democratic countries are attempting to do just now is demonstrate an economic force so great that the enemy sees they cannot win. These companies are doing it because of the strength of feeling of their customers, employees, and owners. There were dockers in the UK who collectively refused to unload Russian oil off a tanker. Didn't matter that the govt hadn't banned it yet. People are making lists but they're of the companies that continue to do business with Russia. And they don't seem to spend a lot of time on the list before caving into the demands.
einarfd 5y ago
There is definitely an argument that boycotts is a blunt tool and have to be applied sparingly and with great care. But in the scope of this conflict, and as an European living in a country that borders Russia, I'm all for it. What is happening in Ukraine is horrific and it is happening because in the mind of the Russian leadership the country had aligned it self to close to the west. So they are in a sense attacked because they are to much like us. There is also the question about what happens next if Putin succeeds in Ukraine, where is next on the path to rebuild the Russian empire? Georgia and Moldovia are candidates, in addition both the Baltics and Finland used to be part of the Russian empire, then there are all of the old Warsaw pact countries as well. How can they and the rest of Europe ever be safe without a regime change or huge degradation of Russian military capabilities? One of the ways to accomplish this to thrash the Russian economy, while that is horrible to all the Russian that do not support the war, the alternative seems worse. Not that Redhat pulling out of Russia is going to have much of an impact on the Russian economy. But everyone's contributions helps a bit.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rytis 5y ago

> I understand people wanting to deter aggression, but this is not the way. What is the way in this particular situation? What would you do?

madengr 5y ago
imwillofficial 5y ago
Not be a fucking hypocrite like the west is being. There are 125 armed conflicts happening right now in the world. Hell we just started bombing Somalia again. Nobody is saying a word about that.
- diordiderot 5y ago
  If it weren't for nukes Russia would be getting bombed too

akulbe 5y ago

This concerns me, as well. I definitely want aggression deterred as well. But at what cost? It seems like there's too much power in the hands of too few. It will bite us.

laumars 5y ago
> It seems like there's too much power in the hands of too few. It will bite us. The balance of power has always been like that. If anything, the internet has diversified power more than it has ever been before in history.
mvc 5y ago
Who do you think has the power at the moment? IMO, this war has demonstrated where power really lies. And that is in the hands of the people. Do you think any politician West of Poland really wanted this economic war with Russia? Clearly, the lives of the rich and powerful would have been much easier had Zelenskeyy snuck off allowing Putin to annex a big chunk of South Eastern Ukraine like he did with Crimea. Energy bills go back down. No additional influx of refugees. Pandemic free. Peachy. So why is it happening? Because the free press is out there documenting the horrors for all to see. And it turns out that people do care. And they are fed up of the lies and the fake news. These sanctions are being made because people demand it. That is customers, individuals, employees. This is what is driving decision-making processes at the moment.
- npteljes 5y ago
  >IMO, this war has demonstrated where power really lies. And that is in the hands of the people. I think what's huge right now is soft power. Public relations and propaganda. Social media to form groups and opinions. I'm linking a Russian example here but I'm sure there's many others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades

mrits 5y ago

The nongovernmental entities often benefit from the barbaric behavior. If the people of Russia don't stand up to the aggression of their own country then they will live with the consequences. It's not like they are getting butchered in their homes like their neighbors.

abecedarius 5y ago
Think about results. Does it help or hurt the Russian resisters when they (and the people they need to persuade) lose most access to the free world? Sanctioning state organs and oligarchs is good and overdue, but the mob extending that to canceling all of Russian civil society seems stupid and evil to me.
- keewee7 5y ago
  Red Hat stopping its commercial services in Russia will not harm dissenters. Besides the majority of Russians support the war. The so-called "resisters" are a rounding error. Listen to Ukrainians on social media. They're all calling for total sanctions against Russia.
- gremlinsinc 5y ago
  Yeah, a family of 4 evacuating and executed during a planned ceasefire in an agreed humanitarian corridor is the same level of sad as Russian citizens who don't even 'accept' there 'is' a 'war' not being able to play Minecraft. People are dying, many of these people are friends, relatives, and co-workers of people living in Russia. Many Russian soldiers are dying needlessly because one - ONE man is having a end-of-life mental break. One man's pride is the cause of all of this. Just one man. Period. One man. Blame Putin for Putin's war. If you don't like suffering for one man's tantrum -- call the Kremlin. I'm sure they'd love to hear your complaints.
  - type0 5y ago
    > Blame Putin for Putin's war. If you don't like suffering for one man's tantrum -- call the Kremlin. This reminds me how people in Soviet Union wrote letters to Stalin to describe injustices and how much they love him because he is the best possible leader they could have. Putin isn't Stalin yet, but the Russian people are waiting patiently for him to become one.

lottin 5y ago

Of course, it's the way. It's the only way, other than entering into a direct armed confrontation with Russia.

pjdemers 5y ago

The difference here is nuclear weapons. We aren't able to use the normal military options against a country threatening nuclear first use. The normal military options are no-fly zones, embedded SOF and advisors, help with logistics and supply chains, etc.

throwmeariver1 5y ago

They have no choice without liquidity you can’t pay your employees and you can’t offer paid services. At the moment Russian YouTube is ad free because google wants to keep it open for information purposes but they don’t make any money from it. For other services like McDonalds this is just not feasible. McDonalds and Coke kept their stores and production longer open because they had to get rid of their perishable goods.

mvc 5y ago

We're cancelling Russia. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/opinion/putin-ukraine-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/opinion/putin-ukraine-chi... Friedman is right that this is economic war. Which I think most people will agree is preferable to nuclear war. But the principle is the same. What democratic countries are attempting to do just now is demonstrate an economic force so great that the enemy sees they cannot win. These companies are doing it because of the strength of feeling of their customers, employees, and owners. There were dockers in the UK who collectively refused to unload Russian oil off a tanker. Didn't matter that the govt hadn't banned it yet. People are making lists but they're of the companies that continue to do business with Russia. And they don't seem to spend a lot of time on the list before caving into the demands.

einarfd 5y ago

There is definitely an argument that boycotts is a blunt tool and have to be applied sparingly and with great care. But in the scope of this conflict, and as an European living in a country that borders Russia, I'm all for it. What is happening in Ukraine is horrific and it is happening because in the mind of the Russian leadership the country had aligned it self to close to the west. So they are in a sense attacked because they are to much like us. There is also the question about what happens next if Putin succeeds in Ukraine, where is next on the path to rebuild the Russian empire? Georgia and Moldovia are candidates, in addition both the Baltics and Finland used to be part of the Russian empire, then there are all of the old Warsaw pact countries as well. How can they and the rest of Europe ever be safe without a regime change or huge degradation of Russian military capabilities? One of the ways to accomplish this to thrash the Russian economy, while that is horrible to all the Russian that do not support the war, the alternative seems worse. Not that Redhat pulling out of Russia is going to have much of an impact on the Russian economy. But everyone's contributions helps a bit.