7 ms·

This much is clear. Scheduling MJ is extremely unwise. But I would also extend this to everything in the psychedelic / hallucinogenic category. They do no ps

This much is clear. Scheduling MJ is extremely unwise. But I would also extend this to everything in the psychedelic / hallucinogenic category. They do no psychological harm and an increasing body of evidence indicates that they, in all likelihood, do a significant amount of mental good for responsible users. An acute example of this is a psychedelic called “DMT”. This psychedelic is nearly everywhere in nature, including our own brains. When inhaled, it lasts less than 10 minutes, give or take. After that 10 minutes, a user is completely sober without any indication that they were not, and no physiological side effects. But during that 10 minutes? It is an acute spiritual and existential experience, possibly the most acute non-normal experience possible for a human being. A true exploration of altered states, and possible contact with a different form of life unbound from our reality. And for some reason, this substance is scheduled. It does no harm to a user, to third parties, nor to society, is short lived, and offers true spiritual experience but it’s scheduled. The scheduling as a whole is archaic, oppressive, and if nothing else, misguided. This is also in top of the fact that it discourages addicts from seeking real treatment due to fear of being criminalized.

chrisweekly 5y ago
I was going to post something v similar about psilocybin. The war on drugs has had such awful consequences and repercussions and costs, it boggles the mind.
- scruple 5y ago
  To suggest that there is no potential for psychological harm from psychedelics is naive. I've personally suffered long-lasting psychological harm from a bad mushroom trip and I have at least a couple of friends/acquaintances who have, as well. You can quibble over the details of why and how adverse effects happen but it doesn't change the fact that they do.
  - survirtual 5y ago
    I meant physiological harm, definitely a mistype on my end. That said, psilocybin is highly sensitive to set and setting, especially to other neural nets and especially to others also on it. There is a massive host of issues in partaking with friends or around anyone else for that matter. It will amplify hidden untruths or other sort of otherwise “benign” sober psychological distress and make them acute. What people call a “bad trip” I call an important lesson. We can choose to react negatively and label it accordingly, or visit it in a sense that a very advanced mindset was indicating a problem. When done this way, bad states cease to exist and it becomes clear the “bad trips” were just bad other things that needed some conscious attention. All this to say: go get lost in the woods and trip with some plants & with people who hang with that setting, they will take care of you and it is a much better setting to do the work on self.
  - chrisweekly 5y ago
    Your comment was sort of aimed at both me and the GP, but FWIW I'm not saying nothing bad ever happened to anybody on hallucinogenics. My main point is that the war on drugs has stymied our ability properly to study and understand these substances which incontrovertibly have some real benefits.
    - scruple 5y ago
      I agree with your point.
bally0241 5y ago
MathCodeLove 5y ago
Saying they do no psychological harm is quite am extreme statement and is just blatantly untrue. I tend to agree that these drugs should be dicriminalized, but you're doing the exact same thing thats been done with marijuana where the benefits of the drug are praised while the negatives are ignored.
- fkfkno 5y ago
  Lack of guidance and cultural context leads to abuse of all sorts of substances. For all the ills of alcohol, there is at least (in the west) a degree of "acceptable usage" existing in society, something which almost every other recreational substance is currently missing.
  - MathCodeLove 5y ago
    I don't disagree, but that's not what was said.
- survirtual 5y ago
  My mistake. I meant physiological harm. Will edit. Edit: cannot edit any longer. While I do not think they do cause psychological harm in the long term (I think they force confrontation with buried psychological issues in order to transcend them), they most certainly can cause short term psychological distress and issues for people unprepared, approaching with the wrong mindset, or using in an otherwise problematic set or setting.
arcticbull 5y ago
> This is also in top of the fact that it discourages addicts from seeking real treatment due to fear of being criminalized. Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2000 and saw a huge reduction in harm associated with drug use, and did not see an increase in usage. They went from among the worst in the EU in terms of HIV infections to among the lowest. [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...
dylan604 5y ago
> It does no harm to a user, to third parties, nor to society, Except it opens doors in people's minds which allows them to think differently for themselves. This results in them behaving less like sheeple. Why would that ever be scary for society?
- giobox 5y ago
  My experience is it opens the door to not thinking much at all, but your mileage may vary. Is there anything more "sheeple" like than a bunch of stoned people sitting around not motivated to do much? Sure, not all mj users may experience it this way, but a lot do! I certainly wouldn't be arguing it opens the door to a bunch of usefully profound thinkers in society.
  - pedrosorio 5y ago
    Parent's quote refers to the psychedelic DMT, not to mj.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    To paraphrase Bill Hicks, if you think marijuana/drug use has never had a good effect on society, take all of your favorite music and throw it in the trash. All of the musicians recording that music were "reaaaaalllll fucking high".
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    Marijuana is very different from psychedelics in this regard.
  - survirtual 5y ago
    MJ on its own has certainly ruined some people, especially daily users. I would argue, however, significantly less so than alcohol. It also has a much lower harm fact on others than alcohol. MJ used more sparingly, and especially when used on someone with exposure to a psychedelic (not simultaneously but maybe the weekend after a trip)? Entirely different ballgame. It can awaken an internal symphony of inspiration and thinking. Everything can be abused. Eat too much if anything and you will suffer. But when used appropriately, very magical experiences can be had that enable routes of thinking and problem solving that seem to come from out of this world. In general, my recommendation to anyone is to try these things while simply meditating or hiking a safe & easy trail. Your mileage will vary but when done correctly, you will acquire otherworldly inspiration applicable towards your skilled professions and hobbies. And if nothing else, even falling short of that result, this possibility should be enough for legality.
howinteresting 5y ago
The problem is that if you or your family have a history of schizophrenia, psychedelics can make things much, much worse. But so can ADHD stimulants.

chrisweekly 5y ago

I was going to post something v similar about psilocybin. The war on drugs has had such awful consequences and repercussions and costs, it boggles the mind.

scruple 5y ago
To suggest that there is no potential for psychological harm from psychedelics is naive. I've personally suffered long-lasting psychological harm from a bad mushroom trip and I have at least a couple of friends/acquaintances who have, as well. You can quibble over the details of why and how adverse effects happen but it doesn't change the fact that they do.
- survirtual 5y ago
  I meant physiological harm, definitely a mistype on my end. That said, psilocybin is highly sensitive to set and setting, especially to other neural nets and especially to others also on it. There is a massive host of issues in partaking with friends or around anyone else for that matter. It will amplify hidden untruths or other sort of otherwise “benign” sober psychological distress and make them acute. What people call a “bad trip” I call an important lesson. We can choose to react negatively and label it accordingly, or visit it in a sense that a very advanced mindset was indicating a problem. When done this way, bad states cease to exist and it becomes clear the “bad trips” were just bad other things that needed some conscious attention. All this to say: go get lost in the woods and trip with some plants & with people who hang with that setting, they will take care of you and it is a much better setting to do the work on self.
- chrisweekly 5y ago
  Your comment was sort of aimed at both me and the GP, but FWIW I'm not saying nothing bad ever happened to anybody on hallucinogenics. My main point is that the war on drugs has stymied our ability properly to study and understand these substances which incontrovertibly have some real benefits.
  - scruple 5y ago
    I agree with your point.

bally0241 5y ago

MathCodeLove 5y ago

Saying they do no psychological harm is quite am extreme statement and is just blatantly untrue. I tend to agree that these drugs should be dicriminalized, but you're doing the exact same thing thats been done with marijuana where the benefits of the drug are praised while the negatives are ignored.

fkfkno 5y ago
Lack of guidance and cultural context leads to abuse of all sorts of substances. For all the ills of alcohol, there is at least (in the west) a degree of "acceptable usage" existing in society, something which almost every other recreational substance is currently missing.
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  I don't disagree, but that's not what was said.
survirtual 5y ago
My mistake. I meant physiological harm. Will edit. Edit: cannot edit any longer. While I do not think they do cause psychological harm in the long term (I think they force confrontation with buried psychological issues in order to transcend them), they most certainly can cause short term psychological distress and issues for people unprepared, approaching with the wrong mindset, or using in an otherwise problematic set or setting.

arcticbull 5y ago

> This is also in top of the fact that it discourages addicts from seeking real treatment due to fear of being criminalized. Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2000 and saw a huge reduction in harm associated with drug use, and did not see an increase in usage. They went from among the worst in the EU in terms of HIV infections to among the lowest. [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...

dylan604 5y ago

> It does no harm to a user, to third parties, nor to society, Except it opens doors in people's minds which allows them to think differently for themselves. This results in them behaving less like sheeple. Why would that ever be scary for society?

giobox 5y ago
My experience is it opens the door to not thinking much at all, but your mileage may vary. Is there anything more "sheeple" like than a bunch of stoned people sitting around not motivated to do much? Sure, not all mj users may experience it this way, but a lot do! I certainly wouldn't be arguing it opens the door to a bunch of usefully profound thinkers in society.
- pedrosorio 5y ago
  Parent's quote refers to the psychedelic DMT, not to mj.
- dylan604 5y ago
  To paraphrase Bill Hicks, if you think marijuana/drug use has never had a good effect on society, take all of your favorite music and throw it in the trash. All of the musicians recording that music were "reaaaaalllll fucking high".
- howinteresting 5y ago
  Marijuana is very different from psychedelics in this regard.
- survirtual 5y ago
  MJ on its own has certainly ruined some people, especially daily users. I would argue, however, significantly less so than alcohol. It also has a much lower harm fact on others than alcohol. MJ used more sparingly, and especially when used on someone with exposure to a psychedelic (not simultaneously but maybe the weekend after a trip)? Entirely different ballgame. It can awaken an internal symphony of inspiration and thinking. Everything can be abused. Eat too much if anything and you will suffer. But when used appropriately, very magical experiences can be had that enable routes of thinking and problem solving that seem to come from out of this world. In general, my recommendation to anyone is to try these things while simply meditating or hiking a safe & easy trail. Your mileage will vary but when done correctly, you will acquire otherworldly inspiration applicable towards your skilled professions and hobbies. And if nothing else, even falling short of that result, this possibility should be enough for legality.

howinteresting 5y ago

The problem is that if you or your family have a history of schizophrenia, psychedelics can make things much, much worse. But so can ADHD stimulants.