7 ms·

The Hacker's Diet

79 points by Thursday24 5y ago

qgin 5y ago
Love seeing this on the front page. This site was the thing that improved my health more than any other health information I’d ever read. There’s so much handwaving in the world around the subject of weight / body composition when the basics are very simple. I hope this site stays up forever.
ddhhyy 5y ago
There is a PDF version and an updated (2005) edition available at the URL one level up: https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/
- egypturnash 5y ago
  “[The fourth edition] is essentially identical in content with the previous editions, but has been extensively re-formatted to improve appearance, accessibility, ease of navigation, and standards compliance.”
nynx 5y ago
Seems like a pretty good resource. It doesn’t seem to follow the more recent consensus on intermittent fasting or keto/etc, but it’s an older page, so that makes sense.
- moes_dev 5y ago
  As someone tempted to try it, I’m curious - what IS the consensus on intermittent fasting / keto?
  - nynx 5y ago
    I admit it’s difficult to find exact, consistent answers, but what I’ve seen is generally a roughly keto diet with all eating constrained to a 4-8 hour period in a day is very healthy. That’s basically what I do: high fat and moderate protein, very low carbohydrates and sugars. One meal a day on average.
    - Honest_Carrot 5y ago
      Same. I've been doing IF for almost 4 years now and I love it. I only do added sugars on the weekends. I do have to take salt while I'm fasting to not get headaches but aside from that it's great.
    - brandonmenc 5y ago
      > One meal a day on average. aka: calorie restriction
      - stjohnswarts 5y ago
        There is a lot more to nutrition than calories. The main component is "how hungry does this diet leave you feeling". Low carb in most cases leaves people feeling more full. 1600 calories of protein and fat are a lot more filling than 1600 calories of donuts and don't swing your blood sugar levels around like crazy. However you are free to keep on preaching "calorie restriction". Humans are complex machines with a conscious and subconscious not a caloric measurement device in the lab
        brandonmenc 5y ago
        > how hungry does this diet leave you feeling This still comes all the way back to calorie restriction. If you feel more full, you eat fewer calories. > Low carb in most cases leaves people feeling more full. That has less to do with the carbohydrate content and almost everything to do with low carb food being physically more difficult to digest. Fat and protein stay in your stomach longer than sugar but - and here's the point "low carb" advocates ignore - so does fiber. You can eat a diet of not-low carb, high fiber, plant-based foods and still lose weight while feeling full. There's not enough hormone-altering magic in carbohydrates to overpower the effect of calories or the satiation of physical digestion.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        stjohnswarts 5y ago
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    I’m pretty sure there is no consensus on keto. And I’ve been doing it for just over 9 years. edit: Luckily "It works on my hardware" is perfectly acceptable for nutrition ;)
  - fknorangesite 5y ago
    > what IS the consensus on intermittent fasting That some people find it to be a useful method of calorie restriction, but it's not magic.
  - bobcostas55 5y ago
    There isn't one, they're just fad diets like all the other ones.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      It's a diet to try. As someone who took to it right away vs multiple other diets I would say it has lots of advantages over "CICO" and "exercise and eat fruit you f-cking slob" diets. I was much less hungry on it, and didn't have a very hard time keeping to 1600 calories a day and losing 50lbs and keeping it off. I went back to a more moderate “lower carb” diet afterwards and have maintained just fine, with the occasional “gotta lose 5lbs from vacation”. It does work for some, but I also guarantee it won't work for everyone.
  - Someone1234 5y ago
    Keto is, at best, unknown and at worst controversial. IM (or "timed eating") has been studied extensively and has been shown to help people control their weight. But it isn't magic. We're talking about around 5 lbs sustained loss. The "exciting unknowns" of IM and whole-day fasting are around if it is good for your medium-long term health (e.g. blood sugar control), but jury is still heavily out on that one. So, super unhelpful summary here, sorry. But nutritional science moves very slowly, in particular with long term health questions. Neither one seems outright dangerous.
  - timbit42 5y ago
    The good parts of keto are the reductions in carbs which reduces blood sugar, and that by focusing on healthy fats and protein, you don't get the sugar spike and crash and then feel hungry. Because you can go between meals, or even two meals without feeling hungry, it makes IF easier. I recommend this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ
- prometheus76 5y ago
  The most useful tool for me is the weight tracking using moving averages. I've been using Hacker's Diet Online since 2008 to track my weight and it's been a very useful way to address my weight creeping up before it got out of hand.
pyronite 5y ago
There is a service for tracking weight that uses methodology from The Hacker's Diet: https://trendweight.com/ https://trendweight.com/ While COVID isolation did a number on my results, it's my favorite weight tracking solution.
grujicd 5y ago
While you're on fourmilab site, I recommend The Autodesk File ebook: https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/ A story about how Autodesk started. If I recall correctly (read it 15+ years ago), a bunch of programmers got together, without clear idea what they'll build. So they started multiple projects and decided to focus on what gets the most traction. In essence a way to test multiple ideas in paralel, thus increasing their collective chances.
BrS96bVxXBLzf5B 5y ago
Any guide to diet and nutrition that is dozens and dozens of pages with heavy emphasis on calories, tracking, numbers and restriction without even a _single_ mention of disorder is frankly massively irresponsible and harm waiting to happen to another poor soul.
- kosasbest 5y ago
  There are many people with un-diagnosed eating disorders, and they think that their eating habits are 'normal'. I regularly stop doing keto and overdose on carbs for a few weeks, in full knowledge I'm ruining my body, but I continue this habit to my detriment. The trick is consistent keto with a commitment to continue doing it until your last days.
- Karawebnetwork 5y ago
  It's the Hacker's Diet. Move Fast and Break Things. But more seriously, I agree with you. There are some red flags the content of the text. For example this: "Why don't they notice? [...] You may be surprised and/or disappointed to discover that people you encounter every day don't remark on the dramatic change you perceive. [...] Don't worry, eventually they will notice." https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4_9.html#SECTION0330490000000000000 https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4... Or this: "Always bear in mind that dieting is the polite term for ``deliberate starvation.'' " https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4_8.html https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4... And this: "Why am I doing this to myself? [...] This is the most fundamental reason to lose weight: to live longer. [...] Even if excess weight doesn't shorten your life, you're far more likely to suffer a variety of medical problems" https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_5_1.html#SECTION0330510000000000000 https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_5...
  - at_compile_time 5y ago
    What bothers you about that last one?
    - 5y ago
dang 5y ago
This post counts as a dupe because the story had significant attention less than a year ago (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html): The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29847579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29847579 - Jan 2022 (42 comments) Earlier: The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095213 - Nov 2020 (2 comments) The Hacker's Diet (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17676314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17676314 - Aug 2018 (77 comments) The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245178 - Jan 2018 (1 comment) The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9658696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9658696 - June 2015 (85 comments) The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=710399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=710399 - July 2009 (33 comments) The Hacker's Diet: Losing weight the hacker way - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=496675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=496675 - Feb 2009 (53 comments)
vicaya 5y ago
The content needs major update to incorporate recent research on: - Macro nutrients (protein, carbs, fat) - Micro nutrients (vitamins and minerals, important if you do IF) - Intermittent fasting (IF) / time restricted feeding (TRF) - Strength training (including weighted calisthenics) - Mobility exercises - Sleep management - Supplements
dukeofdoom 5y ago
My recommendations: [Weight lifting] 1. Squat Rack from Amazon if you have the space. Or Gym Membership. You can put together a pretty good home gym for around $1k. Lots of guides on youtube. 2. Do any good 4 day split. 30-45 minutes each. [Cardio] 1. Rollerblades - easier and faster than running ~$300 2. Kayaking - Supper fun ~$500 3. Bike - Trail riding ~$500 [Mindset / Recovery / Stretching] 1. Bubble / Epson salt bath while you read a book for 20 minutes aloud 2. After your body is warmed up from the bath. Do 20 minutes of yoga. Like this one from Boho Beautiful Morning Yoga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX6I6vs1EFs&t=69s You can add 4x10 pushups to this one. Proper Breathing is half of Yoga. 3. 10 minutes of guided meditation. To improve focus Like this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTN29kj7e-w&t=13s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTN29kj7e-w&t=13s [Calories] 1. cronometer is a great app/website for tracking calories. 2. eatthismuch.com can be used for meal planing. 3. Mike Thurston shows how to meal prep in 15 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVl4b-HHfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVl4b-HHfY 4. Fancy vegan meals. https://www.youtube.com/c/avantgardevegan https://www.youtube.com/c/avantgardevegan vegan recipes and cooking
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Excercise is great for overall fitness but it really does nothing for weight loss. This has been shown over and over.
admiral33 5y ago
This is an area with so much noise that doing nothing can be immediately preferable to doing anything because that 'anything' might be suboptimal. But something must be done - especially in a cognitively strenuous field. Exercise, nutrition, and 8 hours of sleep are the only consistent 'free-lunch' brain supplements a person can take outside of medication for disabilities and maybe the occasional sideways oriented substance depending on the person. Most people want to be hot and feel good. A minority of people know how to make that happen safely. I think this is where software can really shine - by telling people exactly what to do, how often, and adjusting based on results. This site touches on the wide context of health in an 'easy to understand' yet shallow way. It leaves a lot to be desired (for example strength training) and will leave people better off but still deep in that sea of noise. Have any HNers had success with any apps or programs that they would recommend?
lr1970 5y ago
John Walker [0], the author of "Hacker's Diet", is also a founder of Autodesk [1] - maker of AutoCAD [2] - premier CAD design tool in mechanical and structural engineering. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(programmer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(programmer) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD
stjohnswarts 5y ago
I think this only works if you're OCD and love tracking -everything-.
sathomasga 5y ago
For folks interested in the topic, the best resource I've found that thoroughly covers the latest science is [How Not to Diet](https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/ https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/) by Michael Greger. Very, very complete look at all the various aspects of dieting, with [almost 5000 citations](https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/citations/ https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/citations/)

79 points by Thursday24 5y ago

qgin 5y ago

Love seeing this on the front page. This site was the thing that improved my health more than any other health information I’d ever read. There’s so much handwaving in the world around the subject of weight / body composition when the basics are very simple. I hope this site stays up forever.

ddhhyy 5y ago

There is a PDF version and an updated (2005) edition available at the URL one level up: https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/

egypturnash 5y ago
“[The fourth edition] is essentially identical in content with the previous editions, but has been extensively re-formatted to improve appearance, accessibility, ease of navigation, and standards compliance.”

nynx 5y ago

Seems like a pretty good resource. It doesn’t seem to follow the more recent consensus on intermittent fasting or keto/etc, but it’s an older page, so that makes sense.

moes_dev 5y ago
As someone tempted to try it, I’m curious - what IS the consensus on intermittent fasting / keto?
- nynx 5y ago
  I admit it’s difficult to find exact, consistent answers, but what I’ve seen is generally a roughly keto diet with all eating constrained to a 4-8 hour period in a day is very healthy. That’s basically what I do: high fat and moderate protein, very low carbohydrates and sugars. One meal a day on average.
  - Honest_Carrot 5y ago
    Same. I've been doing IF for almost 4 years now and I love it. I only do added sugars on the weekends. I do have to take salt while I'm fasting to not get headaches but aside from that it's great.
  - brandonmenc 5y ago
    > One meal a day on average. aka: calorie restriction
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      There is a lot more to nutrition than calories. The main component is "how hungry does this diet leave you feeling". Low carb in most cases leaves people feeling more full. 1600 calories of protein and fat are a lot more filling than 1600 calories of donuts and don't swing your blood sugar levels around like crazy. However you are free to keep on preaching "calorie restriction". Humans are complex machines with a conscious and subconscious not a caloric measurement device in the lab
      - brandonmenc 5y ago
        > how hungry does this diet leave you feeling This still comes all the way back to calorie restriction. If you feel more full, you eat fewer calories. > Low carb in most cases leaves people feeling more full. That has less to do with the carbohydrate content and almost everything to do with low carb food being physically more difficult to digest. Fat and protein stay in your stomach longer than sugar but - and here's the point "low carb" advocates ignore - so does fiber. You can eat a diet of not-low carb, high fiber, plant-based foods and still lose weight while feeling full. There's not enough hormone-altering magic in carbohydrates to overpower the effect of calories or the satiation of physical digestion.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        stjohnswarts 5y ago
- Semaphor 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure there is no consensus on keto. And I’ve been doing it for just over 9 years. edit: Luckily "It works on my hardware" is perfectly acceptable for nutrition ;)
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  > what IS the consensus on intermittent fasting That some people find it to be a useful method of calorie restriction, but it's not magic.
- bobcostas55 5y ago
  There isn't one, they're just fad diets like all the other ones.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    It's a diet to try. As someone who took to it right away vs multiple other diets I would say it has lots of advantages over "CICO" and "exercise and eat fruit you f-cking slob" diets. I was much less hungry on it, and didn't have a very hard time keeping to 1600 calories a day and losing 50lbs and keeping it off. I went back to a more moderate “lower carb” diet afterwards and have maintained just fine, with the occasional “gotta lose 5lbs from vacation”. It does work for some, but I also guarantee it won't work for everyone.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Keto is, at best, unknown and at worst controversial. IM (or "timed eating") has been studied extensively and has been shown to help people control their weight. But it isn't magic. We're talking about around 5 lbs sustained loss. The "exciting unknowns" of IM and whole-day fasting are around if it is good for your medium-long term health (e.g. blood sugar control), but jury is still heavily out on that one. So, super unhelpful summary here, sorry. But nutritional science moves very slowly, in particular with long term health questions. Neither one seems outright dangerous.
- timbit42 5y ago
  The good parts of keto are the reductions in carbs which reduces blood sugar, and that by focusing on healthy fats and protein, you don't get the sugar spike and crash and then feel hungry. Because you can go between meals, or even two meals without feeling hungry, it makes IF easier. I recommend this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ
prometheus76 5y ago
The most useful tool for me is the weight tracking using moving averages. I've been using Hacker's Diet Online since 2008 to track my weight and it's been a very useful way to address my weight creeping up before it got out of hand.

pyronite 5y ago

There is a service for tracking weight that uses methodology from The Hacker's Diet: https://trendweight.com/ https://trendweight.com/ While COVID isolation did a number on my results, it's my favorite weight tracking solution.

grujicd 5y ago

While you're on fourmilab site, I recommend The Autodesk File ebook: https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/ A story about how Autodesk started. If I recall correctly (read it 15+ years ago), a bunch of programmers got together, without clear idea what they'll build. So they started multiple projects and decided to focus on what gets the most traction. In essence a way to test multiple ideas in paralel, thus increasing their collective chances.

BrS96bVxXBLzf5B 5y ago

Any guide to diet and nutrition that is dozens and dozens of pages with heavy emphasis on calories, tracking, numbers and restriction without even a _single_ mention of disorder is frankly massively irresponsible and harm waiting to happen to another poor soul.

kosasbest 5y ago
There are many people with un-diagnosed eating disorders, and they think that their eating habits are 'normal'. I regularly stop doing keto and overdose on carbs for a few weeks, in full knowledge I'm ruining my body, but I continue this habit to my detriment. The trick is consistent keto with a commitment to continue doing it until your last days.
Karawebnetwork 5y ago
It's the Hacker's Diet. Move Fast and Break Things. But more seriously, I agree with you. There are some red flags the content of the text. For example this: "Why don't they notice? [...] You may be surprised and/or disappointed to discover that people you encounter every day don't remark on the dramatic change you perceive. [...] Don't worry, eventually they will notice." https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4_9.html#SECTION0330490000000000000 https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4... Or this: "Always bear in mind that dieting is the polite term for ``deliberate starvation.'' " https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4_8.html https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_4... And this: "Why am I doing this to myself? [...] This is the most fundamental reason to lose weight: to live longer. [...] Even if excess weight doesn't shorten your life, you're far more likely to suffer a variety of medical problems" https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_5_1.html#SECTION0330510000000000000 https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_5...
- at_compile_time 5y ago
  What bothers you about that last one?
  - 5y ago

dang 5y ago

This post counts as a dupe because the story had significant attention less than a year ago (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html): The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29847579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29847579 - Jan 2022 (42 comments) Earlier: The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095213 - Nov 2020 (2 comments) The Hacker's Diet (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17676314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17676314 - Aug 2018 (77 comments) The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245178 - Jan 2018 (1 comment) The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9658696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9658696 - June 2015 (85 comments) The Hacker's Diet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=710399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=710399 - July 2009 (33 comments) The Hacker's Diet: Losing weight the hacker way - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=496675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=496675 - Feb 2009 (53 comments)

vicaya 5y ago

The content needs major update to incorporate recent research on: - Macro nutrients (protein, carbs, fat) - Micro nutrients (vitamins and minerals, important if you do IF) - Intermittent fasting (IF) / time restricted feeding (TRF) - Strength training (including weighted calisthenics) - Mobility exercises - Sleep management - Supplements

dukeofdoom 5y ago

My recommendations: [Weight lifting] 1. Squat Rack from Amazon if you have the space. Or Gym Membership. You can put together a pretty good home gym for around $1k. Lots of guides on youtube. 2. Do any good 4 day split. 30-45 minutes each. [Cardio] 1. Rollerblades - easier and faster than running ~$300 2. Kayaking - Supper fun ~$500 3. Bike - Trail riding ~$500 [Mindset / Recovery / Stretching] 1. Bubble / Epson salt bath while you read a book for 20 minutes aloud 2. After your body is warmed up from the bath. Do 20 minutes of yoga. Like this one from Boho Beautiful Morning Yoga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX6I6vs1EFs&t=69s You can add 4x10 pushups to this one. Proper Breathing is half of Yoga. 3. 10 minutes of guided meditation. To improve focus Like this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTN29kj7e-w&t=13s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTN29kj7e-w&t=13s [Calories] 1. cronometer is a great app/website for tracking calories. 2. eatthismuch.com can be used for meal planing. 3. Mike Thurston shows how to meal prep in 15 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVl4b-HHfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVl4b-HHfY 4. Fancy vegan meals. https://www.youtube.com/c/avantgardevegan https://www.youtube.com/c/avantgardevegan vegan recipes and cooking

stjohnswarts 5y ago
Excercise is great for overall fitness but it really does nothing for weight loss. This has been shown over and over.

admiral33 5y ago

This is an area with so much noise that doing nothing can be immediately preferable to doing anything because that 'anything' might be suboptimal. But something must be done - especially in a cognitively strenuous field. Exercise, nutrition, and 8 hours of sleep are the only consistent 'free-lunch' brain supplements a person can take outside of medication for disabilities and maybe the occasional sideways oriented substance depending on the person. Most people want to be hot and feel good. A minority of people know how to make that happen safely. I think this is where software can really shine - by telling people exactly what to do, how often, and adjusting based on results. This site touches on the wide context of health in an 'easy to understand' yet shallow way. It leaves a lot to be desired (for example strength training) and will leave people better off but still deep in that sea of noise. Have any HNers had success with any apps or programs that they would recommend?

lr1970 5y ago

John Walker [0], the author of "Hacker's Diet", is also a founder of Autodesk [1] - maker of AutoCAD [2] - premier CAD design tool in mechanical and structural engineering. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(programmer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(programmer) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD

stjohnswarts 5y ago

I think this only works if you're OCD and love tracking -everything-.

sathomasga 5y ago

For folks interested in the topic, the best resource I've found that thoroughly covers the latest science is [How Not to Diet](https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/ https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/) by Michael Greger. Very, very complete look at all the various aspects of dieting, with [almost 5000 citations](https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/citations/ https://nutritionfacts.org/book/how-not-to-diet/citations/)