6 ms·

Somewhat unfortunately, fringe communities online have co-opted a lot of discussion around online dating to be pretty hostile and borderline misogynist, so any

Somewhat unfortunately, fringe communities online have co-opted a lot of discussion around online dating to be pretty hostile and borderline misogynist, so any analytical discussion around Tinder is steeped in bitterness. As a straight man in NYC who online dates a fair amount (1-2 a week) and does relatively well, I can offer some anecdotal perspective. At the end of the day, the biggest reason for this disparity is that most women find most men unattractive. That statement begs repeating - statistically, women find the _majority_ of men to be less attractive than what they believe to be the "average" man. Look no further than the oft-cited and since-deleted OkCupid post which dug into this in great detail. [1] More contemporarily, women-centric communities like /r/FemaleDatingStrategy will happily just come out and state this as fact. [2] (warning - if you're a man who struggles with self-esteem I wouldn't recommend clicking that link, you're only going to feel worse) The real kicker here has and always been the chart which demonstrates that women rated 80% of men as being less than average attractive. Anyone with other single friends in their 20s and 30s can attest to this; it's pretty common to hear a complaint from a woman like "there wasn't a single cute guy at that bar" or "none of my coworkers are people I'd consider dating." I don't really know what the answer is, you can't tell people what they should or shouldn't like. Telling men to just "be more attractive" doesn't really work, and telling women to "lower your standards" is equally silly. As I've read elsewhere on HN, the future I envision is one where a good chunk of straight men are largely just removed from the dating market. We're already beginning to see that, with 28% of men in 2018 reporting no sexual activity, with that number only likely to rise. [3] The only advice I can give to men in that position, especially ones who don't hit the marks which serve well in OLD (tall, white, and fit) is not to beat yourselves up. Your personality probably isn't the problem, you don't "hate women", and you certainly don't just need to "shower and touch grass"; you're playing a game in which the odds are stacked against you. There are certain immutable traits which our society finds incredibly important in hetero attractiveness, and if you're lacking those traits, it's absolutely no fault of your own. [1] https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/okcupid/yourlooksandyourinbox.html https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/okcupid/yourlooksandyo... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/iu5nuo/why_are_most_men_so_unattractive/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/iu5nu... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-ame...

johnfn 5y ago
I mean, the conclusion I saw drawn from the okcupid study was that it’s much more rare comparatively for women to be attracted solely on the basis of appearance. And it bears out: it’s basically common knowledge that women are attracted to confidence, and confidence is nowhere to be seen on dating apps. And if not confidence, charisma, or how he acts in public, etc. So it makes sense that women wouldn’t find men nearly as attractive as men find women on dating apps, since a large part of what they find attractive about guys is invisible on the apps. I feel the solution here is the same it’s always been. Dating apps benefit some subset of the population. If you’re not in that subset you should probably find another strategy that is more in your favor. It’s funny you say guys can’t become more attractive because, compared to women, we’ve been pitched a softball: it’s a lot easier to become more confident than to improve your appearance, as a woman might need to do! I feel I may be moralizing a little here, but in the end, every guy ends up with exactly one girl, and actually studies show that most people are happy in their marriage, so even is it were strictly true that girls find most guys unattractive, it doesn’t seem to matter in the long run.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  I tend to largely agree. I think dating apps are being pitched as a "one size fits all" solution for finding a partner, but I have a handful of close friends, both men and women, who've ditched them entirely as they weren't finding what they were looking for. You're totally right about confidence. I should have been more specific - there are lots and lots of ways for men to improve their _overall_ attractiveness, working on confidence being one of the best. Unfortunately, confidence, humor, sociability, and charm are really hard to translate in dating apps, whereas face shape, stature, and other immutables are front and center. I'm sure we can agree that for the folks frustrated with their luck in OLD, their best bet is to find IRL avenues to meet partners.
  - armitron 5y ago
    Confidence only works when there exists a base level of attraction, which is entirely based on looks (face, height, race). A woman that ƒinds a man ugly and is not open to even the possibility of dating him, will not care one bit about confidence or any other soft-attribute.

johnfn 5y ago

I mean, the conclusion I saw drawn from the okcupid study was that it’s much more rare comparatively for women to be attracted solely on the basis of appearance. And it bears out: it’s basically common knowledge that women are attracted to confidence, and confidence is nowhere to be seen on dating apps. And if not confidence, charisma, or how he acts in public, etc. So it makes sense that women wouldn’t find men nearly as attractive as men find women on dating apps, since a large part of what they find attractive about guys is invisible on the apps. I feel the solution here is the same it’s always been. Dating apps benefit some subset of the population. If you’re not in that subset you should probably find another strategy that is more in your favor. It’s funny you say guys can’t become more attractive because, compared to women, we’ve been pitched a softball: it’s a lot easier to become more confident than to improve your appearance, as a woman might need to do! I feel I may be moralizing a little here, but in the end, every guy ends up with exactly one girl, and actually studies show that most people are happy in their marriage, so even is it were strictly true that girls find most guys unattractive, it doesn’t seem to matter in the long run.

honkdaddy 5y ago
I tend to largely agree. I think dating apps are being pitched as a "one size fits all" solution for finding a partner, but I have a handful of close friends, both men and women, who've ditched them entirely as they weren't finding what they were looking for. You're totally right about confidence. I should have been more specific - there are lots and lots of ways for men to improve their _overall_ attractiveness, working on confidence being one of the best. Unfortunately, confidence, humor, sociability, and charm are really hard to translate in dating apps, whereas face shape, stature, and other immutables are front and center. I'm sure we can agree that for the folks frustrated with their luck in OLD, their best bet is to find IRL avenues to meet partners.
- armitron 5y ago
  Confidence only works when there exists a base level of attraction, which is entirely based on looks (face, height, race). A woman that ƒinds a man ugly and is not open to even the possibility of dating him, will not care one bit about confidence or any other soft-attribute.