4 ms·

Unfortunately NATO has been played into a corner. Sanctions are the only tool that NATO is willing to use right now (alongside lethal aid to Ukraine). What a lo

by axg11 5y ago

Unfortunately NATO has been played into a corner. Sanctions are the only tool that NATO is willing to use right now (alongside lethal aid to Ukraine). What a lot of Western media is overlooking is that this invasion is modestly supported by the Russian population (20-50% depending on which sources you trust). As you said, these same Russians that support the invasion will ultimately blame NATO. We are gambling that making life more difficult for the average Russian will result in regime change. There is an alternative where sanctions increase popular support for further escalation with NATO and/or Ukraine, in order to result in Ukraine being under the Russian sphere of influence _and_ dropping of sanctions.

prohobo 5y ago
The West has become an incompetent, incomprehensibly stupid bully with a gigantic hammer it calls "market theory". It doesn't so much identify and nullify threats so much as it generates market opinion to blindly hate and blacklist anything not considered "good". I'm scared of not having a Ukraine flag in my Twitter handle - despite being Polish and supporting Ukranians in the actual conflict - because I'm scared of the zealot Westerners who might try to pillory me for holding unsavory opinions that go against the current marketable beliefs. I understand how the West is responding and it's not productive, nor is it a "let's wait and see" kind of strategy. This is the same weapon they've been using on everyone else for the past decade. Race, sex, belief, now nationality. It's about turning everything into a market that they control, and we know how people targeted by it react to it. They go cold, MAGA, embrace the antithetical - maybe they even start dropping nukes. When the current round of Western propaganda fades away, who will Russians blame? Only the ones swallowing it on Twitter will blame Putin. So once that's gone this becomes a huge problem for us. The plan is to have the propaganda never end. More people now live their lives through the lens of the internet (or internet-first mentality), who have swallowed enough of the insanity that it's no longer a set of sponsored opinions but "reality". It's clear now that the West completely dominates all propaganda on the internet - I barely see any of the Russian stuff. The Russians can't even get a word out, and I'm wondering who the censors are trying to protect. I highly doubt it's us. What I'm seeing here is the new Western approach to politics in the 21st century. Reality manufacturing and blacklisting, supported by relentless propaganda. The market does the state's dirty work now, and it's constantly hungry for its master's approval, like a big dumb ogre. The only way to stop the Russian aggression is to negotiate with their government. Not put Russians into camps, metaphorical or otherwise. EDIT: If you think I'm wrong, then consider the possible influences. Does doing this push Russia to end the invasion, or does it push them to continue it? Does this help us align ourselves with reality and face it, or does it blind us? Is this likely to make the Russians more willing to become allies, or less willing? etc. etc.
- tharne 5y ago
  > The plan is to have the propaganda never end. It's quite scary. While I support the Ukraine, I'm shocked with how little media discussion there is about American hypocrisy on this topic. This certainly in no way excuses Putin's actions, but it's quite amazing how our elected officials can stand there straight-faced shaking their finger in disapproval at Putin after the number of countries we've invaded in my lifetime alone. Good God, I can't even imagine what we'd do if we got into a conflict with Mexico and the Russians we sending them weapons. Oh wait, that happened with Cuba in the 1960's and we threatened to wipe the Soviet Union off the map with nuclear weapons.
  - rini17 5y ago
    Sure Americans did invade countries and kill civilians and now they act hypocritically.. but on the other side, are there any examples even remotely approaching the hamfisted Russian manners in Chechnya, Syria and Ukraine? Perhaps Israel toward Palestinians but we're talking about USA here.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Regarding Chechnya, I want to remind you that you are talking about an insurgency that was very used to commit terror attacks on civilians and take hostages to negotiate their terms. Including hundreds of children. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_c... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar%E2%80%93Pervomayskoye_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar%E2%80%93Pervomayskoye_... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege
      - rini17 5y ago
        So you say leveling whole cities with ground like Grozny is the right response here?

by axg11 5y ago

prohobo 5y ago

The West has become an incompetent, incomprehensibly stupid bully with a gigantic hammer it calls "market theory". It doesn't so much identify and nullify threats so much as it generates market opinion to blindly hate and blacklist anything not considered "good". I'm scared of not having a Ukraine flag in my Twitter handle - despite being Polish and supporting Ukranians in the actual conflict - because I'm scared of the zealot Westerners who might try to pillory me for holding unsavory opinions that go against the current marketable beliefs. I understand how the West is responding and it's not productive, nor is it a "let's wait and see" kind of strategy. This is the same weapon they've been using on everyone else for the past decade. Race, sex, belief, now nationality. It's about turning everything into a market that they control, and we know how people targeted by it react to it. They go cold, MAGA, embrace the antithetical - maybe they even start dropping nukes. When the current round of Western propaganda fades away, who will Russians blame? Only the ones swallowing it on Twitter will blame Putin. So once that's gone this becomes a huge problem for us. The plan is to have the propaganda never end. More people now live their lives through the lens of the internet (or internet-first mentality), who have swallowed enough of the insanity that it's no longer a set of sponsored opinions but "reality". It's clear now that the West completely dominates all propaganda on the internet - I barely see any of the Russian stuff. The Russians can't even get a word out, and I'm wondering who the censors are trying to protect. I highly doubt it's us. What I'm seeing here is the new Western approach to politics in the 21st century. Reality manufacturing and blacklisting, supported by relentless propaganda. The market does the state's dirty work now, and it's constantly hungry for its master's approval, like a big dumb ogre. The only way to stop the Russian aggression is to negotiate with their government. Not put Russians into camps, metaphorical or otherwise. EDIT: If you think I'm wrong, then consider the possible influences. Does doing this push Russia to end the invasion, or does it push them to continue it? Does this help us align ourselves with reality and face it, or does it blind us? Is this likely to make the Russians more willing to become allies, or less willing? etc. etc.

tharne 5y ago
> The plan is to have the propaganda never end. It's quite scary. While I support the Ukraine, I'm shocked with how little media discussion there is about American hypocrisy on this topic. This certainly in no way excuses Putin's actions, but it's quite amazing how our elected officials can stand there straight-faced shaking their finger in disapproval at Putin after the number of countries we've invaded in my lifetime alone. Good God, I can't even imagine what we'd do if we got into a conflict with Mexico and the Russians we sending them weapons. Oh wait, that happened with Cuba in the 1960's and we threatened to wipe the Soviet Union off the map with nuclear weapons.
- rini17 5y ago
  Sure Americans did invade countries and kill civilians and now they act hypocritically.. but on the other side, are there any examples even remotely approaching the hamfisted Russian manners in Chechnya, Syria and Ukraine? Perhaps Israel toward Palestinians but we're talking about USA here.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Regarding Chechnya, I want to remind you that you are talking about an insurgency that was very used to commit terror attacks on civilians and take hostages to negotiate their terms. Including hundreds of children. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_c... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar%E2%80%93Pervomayskoye_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar%E2%80%93Pervomayskoye_... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege
    - rini17 5y ago
      So you say leveling whole cities with ground like Grozny is the right response here?