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The current situation is already a catastrophe as it is. The best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this mea

The current situation is already a catastrophe as it is. The best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia. It is the only way at lot less Ukrainians will die and then I'm just ignoring the potential outcome of further escalation. Nothing the West is doing right now is working towards this outcome. We still seem to believe that at the end of the road there is some 'win' against Russia with tolerable costs for ourselves. The economic sanctions just boomerang with a comparable net loss to the West. Then there's millions of Ukrainian refugees who will need to be offered a somewhat humane existence in Europe at huge initial costs. The War in Syria already stretched Europe's capability to absorb refugees to the limit. Ukraine has more than twice the number of citizens. The Western leaders has got to stop this pretense of "we got this" and "we can hurt Russia more than it can hurt us". We don't have this.

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
> best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people? I don't understand this reasoning and have even heard it among some of my ultra-religious friends or extended family members. None of them has any skin in the game other than steep gas prices and lot of fear, so they just parrot "war is bad please stap!". But none of them contributes how that would impact the people. If you force them to comment it always turns out to be a trolley-problem that they have pulled the lever on for others: with silly arguments like we must do it because "claiming 100K dead people is still better than 10MM". And this is where this hypothesis gets hairy because that decision is easier to make for others but a lot harder to say: "I and my partner with 2 toddlers will volunteer to be in the pool of those who die." I'm only speaking for myself but there isn't a thing in the world I wouldn't do if I'd have to defend my own family even that means wiping out half of humanity. If I'd think very hard about I'd even wipe out part of my own blood to ensure survival of my own offspring. Luckily this is only a hypothetical scenario. Sure I'd never recover from it emotionally or psychologically but it is what I would do. This is obviously flippant and hypothetical but no better way to illustrate the hypocrisy at play here. Edit: The only part I agree is the rest of the world will be massively hurt by it too. Egypt, Tunesia, Yemen, etc are totally screwed as it's the biggest consumer of UA/RU grain https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/07/we-need-bread-fears-in-middle-east-as-ukraine-russia-war-hits-wheat-imports https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/07/w...
- random_upvoter 5y ago
  > why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people? First, the people of Ukraine are free to decide to do what they think is best and "we", as in the West, are free to decide to do what we think is best. Those things do not need to coincide. Secondly, two million Ukrainians have already decided to forfeit the game outright rather than stay and/or fight. All throughout history a minority decides on war and a majority either huddles or flees. So you tell me what it is that "the Ukrainian people" wish.
  - baybal2 5y ago
  - Etherlord87 5y ago
    How many of those two million are children and mothers, who want to take care of their children? That doesn't necessarily mean those mothers want Ukraine to surrender (on the terms disallowing Ukraine to join NATO or EU). Aside from that, while 2 million refugees is a lot, it's still very far from a majority in a country of 45 million people.
  - vharuck 5y ago
    >two million Ukrainians have already decided to forfeit the game outright rather than stay and/or fight. Mostly women, children, and the elderly. All Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 are prohibited from leaving the country. >All throughout history a minority decides on war and a majority either huddles or flees 2 million is far from a majority of Ukrainians. I don't know if this includes the number of people held up at border crossings, and doubt it includes those waiting for transportation. But it's still unlikely the majority, even if counting those groups. >So you tell me what it is that "the Ukrainian people" wish. They tell us. Right before the invasion, very few Ukrainians wanted to join Russia[0]. Another poll[1] conducted last week showed: >>Only 11 per cent of Ukrainians agreed “if I could leave Ukraine safely tomorrow for another country I would.” Nearly seven in 10 (69 per cent) strongly disagreed. Only one in 20 (five per cent) of those aged 65 or over said they would leave if they could. And: >>Indeed, 67 per cent said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further seven per cent saying they were already doing so. 85 per cent of men and 63 per cent of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so. [0] https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukrain... [1] https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2022/03/lord-ashcroft-what-ukrainians-think-about-the-war-putin-russians-nato-membership-europe-and-britain-a-remarkable-poll-from-kiev.html https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2022/03/lord-ashcr...
kbart 5y ago
It was proven over and over again, that the more you give to Russia, the more they will take next time. We have to stop them now or never. War is already on going between Russia and the west (Putin himself and his chief of spies already said, that they deem sanctions akin declaration of war), hiding from this fact won't help.
ProjectArcturis 5y ago
The realpolitik of it is, Russia has blundered into a catastrophe (or, if you prefer, the West provoked it by expanding NATO). Like the Soviets in Afghanistan, it will turn into a grinding, unwinnable quagmire. The thought is that the war will help pull down the Putin regime, like Afghanistan hollowed out the Soviet Union. It also invites anyone with a territorial dispute with Russia to push hard on it now, like the Japanese are doing. It will be awful for Ukraine, and for the Russian soldiers sent to fight it. But the West's only alternative would be to encourage Ukraine to surrender, which would only tee up Putin's next invasion (Moldova, then the Baltics, then Poland).

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago

> best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people? I don't understand this reasoning and have even heard it among some of my ultra-religious friends or extended family members. None of them has any skin in the game other than steep gas prices and lot of fear, so they just parrot "war is bad please stap!". But none of them contributes how that would impact the people. If you force them to comment it always turns out to be a trolley-problem that they have pulled the lever on for others: with silly arguments like we must do it because "claiming 100K dead people is still better than 10MM". And this is where this hypothesis gets hairy because that decision is easier to make for others but a lot harder to say: "I and my partner with 2 toddlers will volunteer to be in the pool of those who die." I'm only speaking for myself but there isn't a thing in the world I wouldn't do if I'd have to defend my own family even that means wiping out half of humanity. If I'd think very hard about I'd even wipe out part of my own blood to ensure survival of my own offspring. Luckily this is only a hypothetical scenario. Sure I'd never recover from it emotionally or psychologically but it is what I would do. This is obviously flippant and hypothetical but no better way to illustrate the hypocrisy at play here. Edit: The only part I agree is the rest of the world will be massively hurt by it too. Egypt, Tunesia, Yemen, etc are totally screwed as it's the biggest consumer of UA/RU grain https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/07/we-need-bread-fears-in-middle-east-as-ukraine-russia-war-hits-wheat-imports https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/07/w...

random_upvoter 5y ago
> why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people? First, the people of Ukraine are free to decide to do what they think is best and "we", as in the West, are free to decide to do what we think is best. Those things do not need to coincide. Secondly, two million Ukrainians have already decided to forfeit the game outright rather than stay and/or fight. All throughout history a minority decides on war and a majority either huddles or flees. So you tell me what it is that "the Ukrainian people" wish.
- baybal2 5y ago
- Etherlord87 5y ago
  How many of those two million are children and mothers, who want to take care of their children? That doesn't necessarily mean those mothers want Ukraine to surrender (on the terms disallowing Ukraine to join NATO or EU). Aside from that, while 2 million refugees is a lot, it's still very far from a majority in a country of 45 million people.
- vharuck 5y ago
  >two million Ukrainians have already decided to forfeit the game outright rather than stay and/or fight. Mostly women, children, and the elderly. All Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 are prohibited from leaving the country. >All throughout history a minority decides on war and a majority either huddles or flees 2 million is far from a majority of Ukrainians. I don't know if this includes the number of people held up at border crossings, and doubt it includes those waiting for transportation. But it's still unlikely the majority, even if counting those groups. >So you tell me what it is that "the Ukrainian people" wish. They tell us. Right before the invasion, very few Ukrainians wanted to join Russia[0]. Another poll[1] conducted last week showed: >>Only 11 per cent of Ukrainians agreed “if I could leave Ukraine safely tomorrow for another country I would.” Nearly seven in 10 (69 per cent) strongly disagreed. Only one in 20 (five per cent) of those aged 65 or over said they would leave if they could. And: >>Indeed, 67 per cent said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further seven per cent saying they were already doing so. 85 per cent of men and 63 per cent of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so. [0] https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukrain... [1] https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2022/03/lord-ashcroft-what-ukrainians-think-about-the-war-putin-russians-nato-membership-europe-and-britain-a-remarkable-poll-from-kiev.html https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2022/03/lord-ashcr...

kbart 5y ago

It was proven over and over again, that the more you give to Russia, the more they will take next time. We have to stop them now or never. War is already on going between Russia and the west (Putin himself and his chief of spies already said, that they deem sanctions akin declaration of war), hiding from this fact won't help.

ProjectArcturis 5y ago

The realpolitik of it is, Russia has blundered into a catastrophe (or, if you prefer, the West provoked it by expanding NATO). Like the Soviets in Afghanistan, it will turn into a grinding, unwinnable quagmire. The thought is that the war will help pull down the Putin regime, like Afghanistan hollowed out the Soviet Union. It also invites anyone with a territorial dispute with Russia to push hard on it now, like the Japanese are doing. It will be awful for Ukraine, and for the Russian soldiers sent to fight it. But the West's only alternative would be to encourage Ukraine to surrender, which would only tee up Putin's next invasion (Moldova, then the Baltics, then Poland).