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sounds like justification for any sort of collateral damage, this reasoning. reality check: it's hitting Putin marginally while negatively affecting all Russian

by hirako2000 5y ago

sounds like justification for any sort of collateral damage, this reasoning. reality check: it's hitting Putin marginally while negatively affecting all Russians and the entire world. where I live, people at the bottom of the jar who barely afford a living now fell below the threshold and can't afford energy (gas and soon oil and electricity) to even cook their food. Thanks to the "hitting" of putin. millions or perhaps billions who have nothing to do with this conflict and may be also against the Russian government are paying the cost of the west obstination working for his own interest only. it is baffling the near unanimous support for maximum economical sanction given all we know about them. millions of death as a consequence of decades of sanctions against saddam, but we never learn of course. or we learn but get relentlessly told we are fighting the good fight. take a pause from the news for a bit and think calmly who is paying the consequences of this politic. the Ukrainians for the most part. then the Russians, and then the rest of the world. even that is a forbidden form of thinking. we only have one choice:support Ukraine in its resistance and all possible economical sanctions against our enemy. pretty dull world we live in with very well educated people who refuse to admit how terrible this politic is.

zelphirkalt 5y ago
The premises is false. > Thanks to the "hitting" of putin. millions or perhaps billions who have nothing to do with this conflict and may be also against the Russian government are paying the cost of the west obstination working for his own interest only. Putin brought this upon you. He has been warned before he started invading. He ignored the warnings, now Russia feels the consequences. Do not blaim someone other than his gang. If people do not like what their government has gotten them into, perhaps they should do something against that government. Like making it stop war and invest in its own turf, before investing in ever more military, which they are now losing in a foreign country. Just imagine all the billions of cash that went into those tanks, airplanes, and helicopters to be invested in the actual Russian population. How much better people could have it. But the "leader" has chosen differently.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  I'm not Putin's mate and I have zero influence on what he is doing. As i wrote, billions of people who have nothing to do with Putin or his gov or even his country are now paying the cost of Western nations actions. You could say Putin was warned, it changes nothing. Western sanctions are impacting unrelated populations, again who may well be against Putin themselves. Putin, like the leader of the US and several other nations have poured billions of dollars, even trillions in the US case to showed civilians with bombs and to destroy entire societies. Warned or not, actions that punishes innocent civilians is to be criticised and that's what I'm doing here without discrimination.I blame the west for their recent sanctions, and previous sanctions on other countries, and for their invasions through the middle east and elsewhere. And Russia for its military invasion of Ukraine. Can't we pause and look at criminal actions and all agree they are illegitimate? Why do we need to take the Western governments side as if our side was more legitimate?
  - zelphirkalt 5y ago
    Well, what other actions than sanctions are you proposing then, as a deterrence against starting wars? There are not so many alternatives, especially not peaceful ones. Non-peaceful ones are very dangerous for everyone. It is sad, that sanctions are difficult to tailor in such a way, that they hit Putin and his gang exclusively. Their wealth is entangled with the wealth of the whole country. Of course it would be great to have severe sanctions only targetting him and his gang. If you have any bright ideas on how to do that, you should definitely voice them. Partly this is done by seizing assets of the gang outside of Russia. Those are luxury goods like yachts and properties. Meanwhile Europe and the US try to make Putin unpopular inside Russia as well, so that the people find a way to get rid of him or overturn his course of action and end the war. They are loudly making it clear, that they regret, that Russians not associated with the war, will face consequences of their government acting this way. They are making it clear, that the sanctions are directed against the Russian dictator and his gang. Before the invasion started, people in Russia probably knew about military being positioned at the Ukraine border. One has to ask, why the people in Russia did not show more resistance to Putin flexing "his muscles". But perhaps many years of working to make people in Russia itself afraid of going out to the streets and protesting played a major part in this. Or that they also might have thought, that he would not be mad enough to actually start an invasion. On the other hand he did already in 2014. It is difficult or impossible to pinpoint single a moment, when Russian people should have risen and rejected Putin's actions, except for saying "at every single point along the way". I guess it is a good lecture to all people in countries not governed by such a person to look out for signs and put up resistance as early as possible. "Nip it in the bud!" I guess. But here we are and the situation has come this far. > Can't we pause and look at criminal actions and all agree they are illegitimate? Why do we need to take the Western governments side as if our side was more legitimate? Surely it would be great, if we could. Tell the Russian army in Ukraine to stop their crimes and talk about it. And surely Western governments are not without fault. Surely not the US. However, merely stating, that Putin's and his army's actions are crimes will not deter them from doing anything, unfortunately. I also wish it was different and that Russian people would not have to suffer for their "leader"'s actions.

zelphirkalt 5y ago

The premises is false. > Thanks to the "hitting" of putin. millions or perhaps billions who have nothing to do with this conflict and may be also against the Russian government are paying the cost of the west obstination working for his own interest only. Putin brought this upon you. He has been warned before he started invading. He ignored the warnings, now Russia feels the consequences. Do not blaim someone other than his gang. If people do not like what their government has gotten them into, perhaps they should do something against that government. Like making it stop war and invest in its own turf, before investing in ever more military, which they are now losing in a foreign country. Just imagine all the billions of cash that went into those tanks, airplanes, and helicopters to be invested in the actual Russian population. How much better people could have it. But the "leader" has chosen differently.

hirako2000 5y ago
I'm not Putin's mate and I have zero influence on what he is doing. As i wrote, billions of people who have nothing to do with Putin or his gov or even his country are now paying the cost of Western nations actions. You could say Putin was warned, it changes nothing. Western sanctions are impacting unrelated populations, again who may well be against Putin themselves. Putin, like the leader of the US and several other nations have poured billions of dollars, even trillions in the US case to showed civilians with bombs and to destroy entire societies. Warned or not, actions that punishes innocent civilians is to be criticised and that's what I'm doing here without discrimination.I blame the west for their recent sanctions, and previous sanctions on other countries, and for their invasions through the middle east and elsewhere. And Russia for its military invasion of Ukraine. Can't we pause and look at criminal actions and all agree they are illegitimate? Why do we need to take the Western governments side as if our side was more legitimate?
- zelphirkalt 5y ago
  Well, what other actions than sanctions are you proposing then, as a deterrence against starting wars? There are not so many alternatives, especially not peaceful ones. Non-peaceful ones are very dangerous for everyone. It is sad, that sanctions are difficult to tailor in such a way, that they hit Putin and his gang exclusively. Their wealth is entangled with the wealth of the whole country. Of course it would be great to have severe sanctions only targetting him and his gang. If you have any bright ideas on how to do that, you should definitely voice them. Partly this is done by seizing assets of the gang outside of Russia. Those are luxury goods like yachts and properties. Meanwhile Europe and the US try to make Putin unpopular inside Russia as well, so that the people find a way to get rid of him or overturn his course of action and end the war. They are loudly making it clear, that they regret, that Russians not associated with the war, will face consequences of their government acting this way. They are making it clear, that the sanctions are directed against the Russian dictator and his gang. Before the invasion started, people in Russia probably knew about military being positioned at the Ukraine border. One has to ask, why the people in Russia did not show more resistance to Putin flexing "his muscles". But perhaps many years of working to make people in Russia itself afraid of going out to the streets and protesting played a major part in this. Or that they also might have thought, that he would not be mad enough to actually start an invasion. On the other hand he did already in 2014. It is difficult or impossible to pinpoint single a moment, when Russian people should have risen and rejected Putin's actions, except for saying "at every single point along the way". I guess it is a good lecture to all people in countries not governed by such a person to look out for signs and put up resistance as early as possible. "Nip it in the bud!" I guess. But here we are and the situation has come this far. > Can't we pause and look at criminal actions and all agree they are illegitimate? Why do we need to take the Western governments side as if our side was more legitimate? Surely it would be great, if we could. Tell the Russian army in Ukraine to stop their crimes and talk about it. And surely Western governments are not without fault. Surely not the US. However, merely stating, that Putin's and his army's actions are crimes will not deter them from doing anything, unfortunately. I also wish it was different and that Russian people would not have to suffer for their "leader"'s actions.