7 ms·

I'm not really much of a Beijing supporter in general but: Why is it that the western narrative is primary and Beijing rewrites it? It's all narratives. They'r

by anm89 5y ago

I'm not really much of a Beijing supporter in general but: Why is it that the western narrative is primary and Beijing rewrites it? It's all narratives. They're all primary in their own sphere. The idea that the US has a history of objectively writing the narrative is laughable, so so what if Beijing is full of it too.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Jyaif 5y ago
Putin is a great guy and Ukraine is controlled by Nazis. The fact that I can write this without fearing for my life or my "social score" is the difference.
- motleysource 5y ago
  You forgot to provide the source for Ukraine's argument: https://youtu.be/rUja0J6mMds https://youtu.be/rUja0J6mMds
- __s 5y ago
  But fear for your karma!
ordu 5y ago
No, the article is about Beijing had rewritten one of its narratives and replaced it with another. There is nothing about western narrative.
Ourgon 5y ago
Because you're reading and writing this on a western site? Of course we have our narrative, and of course it contains embellishments and skips over the cracks, it is meant to show us in the best light. Take away all embellishments and show all the cracks from all narratives and take your pick, which one will it be? - the west, with a nominally "democratic" system which has the tendency to be gamed by an in-crowd, leading to essentially the same people taking turns in controlling the countries. They use this control both for personal gain as well as to drive their (party) ideologies which are not always true to what they wrote on their election posters. The populace is generally free to do what they like as long as they pay taxes. The justice departments tend to err on the side of justice, not on that of the will of the ruling parties. - China, with an autocratic system described as "communism" but in reality closer to an oligarchy where "the leader" has an outsized amount of power to get through his will and as such gets to decide which course the country follows. Under Mao this was bloodshed and oppression, under Deng - who was wedged between the Soviet and Western blocks - it was aimed at loosening the reins a little bit in an attempt to overcome the damage caused by Mao, now under Xi is it again more towards Mao's ideology but this time backed by 21st century technology. The populace has undoubtedly become richer in the process but they are not free to display their displeasure, those who stick their heads up above the field tend to disappear. The justice system is on the side of the party which wrote the law books. - Russia, with a kleptocratic system described as "democratic" but in reality mostly a show meant to fool the outside world. From Czar through Commissar to would-be Czar, all leaders have convinced the Russian people that they are both destined for greatness as well as that they are under constant attack from all sides which explains the empty shelves in the stores - the motherland is surrounded by enemies. Also from Czar through Commissar to Putin, they enrich themselves and their chosen (but disposable) lackeys in the process, funnelling off funds which were meant to "defend the motherland" or "build those bridges" or "improve those roads". The populace has been brewed in this system for so long that especially the older generations don't know any better than that this is the way it works - Russia has always been at war with Eurasia after all. The justice system is on the side of the one with the largest bribes. I choose the west, warts and all. You?
simonh 5y ago
The point is the "Western Narrative" is not a government imposed narrative, it's the result of free, independent reporting, free uncensored social media communication and people coming to their own conclusions. Take the German government supporting kicking Russia off SWIFT. This was a decision almost entirely forced on the German government by public pressure. There was no government narrative driving that. In fact the Russian and Chinese narratives are widely distributed, published and discussed in the West. We're doing it right now. The western narrative includes all the other narratives too, so there really isn't a western narrative in the same way at all. As for the US, until literally a few days ago half the US political establishment was very much pro-Putin. They played down the threat he posed and trivialised his interference even in US politics. At the recent Republican conference, which was a few days after the invasion of Ukraine started, criticism of Putin was almost completely absent, although some of them did wobble a bit on the subject. Since then they have quickly reversed direction. In contrast the Beijing narrative is entirely, exclusively a government narrative. No other narrative within China is tolerated. Hence the linked article points out we don't actually know what ordinary Chinese think about any of this because their narratives are utterly suppressed, only what the government says.
- MrYellowP 5y ago
  > it's the result of free, independent reporting, free uncensored social media communication and people coming to their own conclusions. I want to live in the world you live in, because reality seriously disagrees with you. There's no such thing as independent reporting, free uncensored social media communication and people coming to their own conclusions. Not for the masses. No. Of course independent reporting etc exists, but not for the masses, regardless where you're from. So either you deny the existence of propaganda, or you believe that "propaganda only happens everywhere else", or are unaware of the propaganda that influences you personally. Which is it?
  - simonh 5y ago
    Can you give examples of reporting from Ukraine, or on the Ukraine situation being censored in the western media? I was watching an RT broadcast on the 'not a war' yesterday and the major news sources Ive been following regularly report on the Russian media position. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60571737 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60571737 As I pointed out, we're actually discussing the Chinese narrative, which we have full access to, right now. If that stuff was more popular and people freely chose to give it more credibility it would be more widely distributed. That's how that works. This isn't new, back in the 80s I occasionally bought a (cut down, translated but uncensored) copy of Pravda in my local newsagent here in the UK. It was hilarious, and usually right next to Marxism Today which was also highly risible. What doesn't fly well over here is the sort of flat out lying seen on Russian media. Audiences over here are understandably sickened and revulsed by what is happening and what Russian media is saying about it. Hence RT getting dropped from channels all over Europe, but if you still want to know, you can easily find out. As I said, the "western narrative" completely includes and involves discussion and evaluation of all the narratives.
Kiro 5y ago
What a misplaced comment. The article is about them rewriting their own narrative.
bakuninsbart 5y ago
You can freely read Chinese or russian narratives if you live in the US or EU, the opposite isn't true. Of course there are problems with the narratives created by our governments and media, especially during war time, but hey, you are free to call them out, free to provide facts that counter such narratives, and free to try and create and publish your own narratives. The main difference between us and China/Russia is that we have access to way more information, and thus false narratives are created differently, either through information overload or information bias, but not by simply forbidding the reporting of facts.
- insickness 5y ago
  > You can freely read Chinese or russian narratives if you live in the US or EU That's actually not true. RT, Sputnik and other Russian sources have been taken down. While this censorship may not be as stark as what is happening in China, the pattern of censoring soft targets before moving on to hard targets is concerning.
xdennis 5y ago
Maybe read the article before relying on your westernphobia.

by anm89 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Jyaif 5y ago

Putin is a great guy and Ukraine is controlled by Nazis. The fact that I can write this without fearing for my life or my "social score" is the difference.

motleysource 5y ago
You forgot to provide the source for Ukraine's argument: https://youtu.be/rUja0J6mMds https://youtu.be/rUja0J6mMds
__s 5y ago
But fear for your karma!

ordu 5y ago

No, the article is about Beijing had rewritten one of its narratives and replaced it with another. There is nothing about western narrative.

Ourgon 5y ago

Because you're reading and writing this on a western site? Of course we have our narrative, and of course it contains embellishments and skips over the cracks, it is meant to show us in the best light. Take away all embellishments and show all the cracks from all narratives and take your pick, which one will it be? - the west, with a nominally "democratic" system which has the tendency to be gamed by an in-crowd, leading to essentially the same people taking turns in controlling the countries. They use this control both for personal gain as well as to drive their (party) ideologies which are not always true to what they wrote on their election posters. The populace is generally free to do what they like as long as they pay taxes. The justice departments tend to err on the side of justice, not on that of the will of the ruling parties. - China, with an autocratic system described as "communism" but in reality closer to an oligarchy where "the leader" has an outsized amount of power to get through his will and as such gets to decide which course the country follows. Under Mao this was bloodshed and oppression, under Deng - who was wedged between the Soviet and Western blocks - it was aimed at loosening the reins a little bit in an attempt to overcome the damage caused by Mao, now under Xi is it again more towards Mao's ideology but this time backed by 21st century technology. The populace has undoubtedly become richer in the process but they are not free to display their displeasure, those who stick their heads up above the field tend to disappear. The justice system is on the side of the party which wrote the law books. - Russia, with a kleptocratic system described as "democratic" but in reality mostly a show meant to fool the outside world. From Czar through Commissar to would-be Czar, all leaders have convinced the Russian people that they are both destined for greatness as well as that they are under constant attack from all sides which explains the empty shelves in the stores - the motherland is surrounded by enemies. Also from Czar through Commissar to Putin, they enrich themselves and their chosen (but disposable) lackeys in the process, funnelling off funds which were meant to "defend the motherland" or "build those bridges" or "improve those roads". The populace has been brewed in this system for so long that especially the older generations don't know any better than that this is the way it works - Russia has always been at war with Eurasia after all. The justice system is on the side of the one with the largest bribes. I choose the west, warts and all. You?

simonh 5y ago

The point is the "Western Narrative" is not a government imposed narrative, it's the result of free, independent reporting, free uncensored social media communication and people coming to their own conclusions. Take the German government supporting kicking Russia off SWIFT. This was a decision almost entirely forced on the German government by public pressure. There was no government narrative driving that. In fact the Russian and Chinese narratives are widely distributed, published and discussed in the West. We're doing it right now. The western narrative includes all the other narratives too, so there really isn't a western narrative in the same way at all. As for the US, until literally a few days ago half the US political establishment was very much pro-Putin. They played down the threat he posed and trivialised his interference even in US politics. At the recent Republican conference, which was a few days after the invasion of Ukraine started, criticism of Putin was almost completely absent, although some of them did wobble a bit on the subject. Since then they have quickly reversed direction. In contrast the Beijing narrative is entirely, exclusively a government narrative. No other narrative within China is tolerated. Hence the linked article points out we don't actually know what ordinary Chinese think about any of this because their narratives are utterly suppressed, only what the government says.

MrYellowP 5y ago
> it's the result of free, independent reporting, free uncensored social media communication and people coming to their own conclusions. I want to live in the world you live in, because reality seriously disagrees with you. There's no such thing as independent reporting, free uncensored social media communication and people coming to their own conclusions. Not for the masses. No. Of course independent reporting etc exists, but not for the masses, regardless where you're from. So either you deny the existence of propaganda, or you believe that "propaganda only happens everywhere else", or are unaware of the propaganda that influences you personally. Which is it?
- simonh 5y ago
  Can you give examples of reporting from Ukraine, or on the Ukraine situation being censored in the western media? I was watching an RT broadcast on the 'not a war' yesterday and the major news sources Ive been following regularly report on the Russian media position. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60571737 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60571737 As I pointed out, we're actually discussing the Chinese narrative, which we have full access to, right now. If that stuff was more popular and people freely chose to give it more credibility it would be more widely distributed. That's how that works. This isn't new, back in the 80s I occasionally bought a (cut down, translated but uncensored) copy of Pravda in my local newsagent here in the UK. It was hilarious, and usually right next to Marxism Today which was also highly risible. What doesn't fly well over here is the sort of flat out lying seen on Russian media. Audiences over here are understandably sickened and revulsed by what is happening and what Russian media is saying about it. Hence RT getting dropped from channels all over Europe, but if you still want to know, you can easily find out. As I said, the "western narrative" completely includes and involves discussion and evaluation of all the narratives.

Kiro 5y ago

What a misplaced comment. The article is about them rewriting their own narrative.

bakuninsbart 5y ago

You can freely read Chinese or russian narratives if you live in the US or EU, the opposite isn't true. Of course there are problems with the narratives created by our governments and media, especially during war time, but hey, you are free to call them out, free to provide facts that counter such narratives, and free to try and create and publish your own narratives. The main difference between us and China/Russia is that we have access to way more information, and thus false narratives are created differently, either through information overload or information bias, but not by simply forbidding the reporting of facts.

insickness 5y ago
> You can freely read Chinese or russian narratives if you live in the US or EU That's actually not true. RT, Sputnik and other Russian sources have been taken down. While this censorship may not be as stark as what is happening in China, the pattern of censoring soft targets before moving on to hard targets is concerning.

xdennis 5y ago

Maybe read the article before relying on your westernphobia.