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Renewables at present cost more than dirty energy. At least in capital costs. You're not going to get poor people affordable energy that way. Your best bet is

by xupybd 5y ago

Renewables at present cost more than dirty energy. At least in capital costs. You're not going to get poor people affordable energy that way. Your best bet is to develop the technology in the countries that can afford it. Then introduce the renewables when it's affordable. That's not far off.

tialaramex 5y ago
Because world gas prices are so high, renewable energy is by far the cheapest option for new electricity generation in the UK already. Let's take this morning's peak, electricity wholesale spot prices were £600 per MWh. A "subsidised" wind farm in the North Sea might be paid £150 per MWh, which ordinarily is indeed very expensive, but right now that means £450 per MWh comes to the government as the other side of the "subsidy". There's maybe 13GW of wind power this morning (of maybe 35GW used in Britain). If that was all gas power instead, it would have cost us almost £1M every ten minutes extra on top of what will be on bills anyway. Even at "normal" prices recently, those wind farms are basically free. Only in the middle of the night when there's no power need and the reservoirs and batteries are full do they drive prices briefly negative and thus their subsidy actually pays them, all day the prices are above subsidy levels and they pay us.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  It's been the cheapest for a decade, even when gas prices were low. You need to include health costs etc. in that, but if we're worrying about poor people, then simply ignoring the pollution that will make them sick seems weird.
  - oblio 5y ago
    That's much harder to quantify and neither regular people nor governments work like that. Unfortunate, but that's how it is.
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  The silver lining here is that it make energy storage economical without any subsidies. Looking at local Finnish spot prices - one could charge for 30e/MWh and discharge at 500e/MWh. Companies like GridScale tout 60% round-trip efficiency at a price of 60e/kWh. With such uneven prices, the installation pays for itself within a single year, which is crazy high ROI
- xupybd 5y ago
  If your in a poor part of the world can installing new renewables + storage really compete with plants that burn fossil fuels? Yes if they had the capital to go for the best option they might but I doubt they do.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    There are two factors to consider: 1. Fixed v. perpetual costs 2. Negative externalities from pollution Even accounting for one of these (let alone both) puts renewables in pretty favorable light.

by xupybd 5y ago

tialaramex 5y ago

Because world gas prices are so high, renewable energy is by far the cheapest option for new electricity generation in the UK already. Let's take this morning's peak, electricity wholesale spot prices were £600 per MWh. A "subsidised" wind farm in the North Sea might be paid £150 per MWh, which ordinarily is indeed very expensive, but right now that means £450 per MWh comes to the government as the other side of the "subsidy". There's maybe 13GW of wind power this morning (of maybe 35GW used in Britain). If that was all gas power instead, it would have cost us almost £1M every ten minutes extra on top of what will be on bills anyway. Even at "normal" prices recently, those wind farms are basically free. Only in the middle of the night when there's no power need and the reservoirs and batteries are full do they drive prices briefly negative and thus their subsidy actually pays them, all day the prices are above subsidy levels and they pay us.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
It's been the cheapest for a decade, even when gas prices were low. You need to include health costs etc. in that, but if we're worrying about poor people, then simply ignoring the pollution that will make them sick seems weird.
- oblio 5y ago
  That's much harder to quantify and neither regular people nor governments work like that. Unfortunate, but that's how it is.
thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
The silver lining here is that it make energy storage economical without any subsidies. Looking at local Finnish spot prices - one could charge for 30e/MWh and discharge at 500e/MWh. Companies like GridScale tout 60% round-trip efficiency at a price of 60e/kWh. With such uneven prices, the installation pays for itself within a single year, which is crazy high ROI
xupybd 5y ago
If your in a poor part of the world can installing new renewables + storage really compete with plants that burn fossil fuels? Yes if they had the capital to go for the best option they might but I doubt they do.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  There are two factors to consider: 1. Fixed v. perpetual costs 2. Negative externalities from pollution Even accounting for one of these (let alone both) puts renewables in pretty favorable light.