4 ms·

So… sanctions shouldn’t be used because they are too powerful? And this is argued almost exclusively with pre-1940 history? The specifics of what results of san

So… sanctions shouldn’t be used because they are too powerful? And this is argued almost exclusively with pre-1940 history? The specifics of what results of sanctions the author finds to be excessive are limited to mentioning deaths from famine. Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? I can discern exactly one testable hypothesis from this: that the US would be more willing than Europe to impose sanctions. This idea has already been proven to be wrong. For an example that seems much closer than the current situation, including public pressure campaigns against individual companies, see South Africa, described in the same magazine: https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/when-polaroid-workers-fought-apartheid https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/when-polaroi...

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? Capable of yes, willing to no, but at this point it may not be up to them; if Russian logistics fails, people may starve before it's even known.
- sanxiyn 5y ago
  Why would Russian logistics fail?
  - vixen99 5y ago
    Their military logistics have not worked well to date much to the surprise of many.
    - sanxiyn 5y ago
      Yes, but that's very different from food logistics failing in Russia so "people may starve". That sounds extremely unlikely.
lb1lf 5y ago
-What you are witnessing is not sanctions. Per Kremlin new-speak, it is 'special economic operations'.
- type0 5y ago
  Putin said it's economic act of war
Traster 5y ago
I don't think it's true to say that Europe and the US are equally willing to apply sanctions. The entire theme of the months before the invasion was that the US was willing to go fast and hard on sanctions whilst European countries were largely split. As it turns out Russia's actions were so extreme that essentially it collapsed that split. But that's also because Europe is far more affected by Russia's war on Ukraine than the US. You see this in the exceptions to the sanctions- gas & oil that Europe is dependent on, and the support the US is providing in terms of procuring LNG for Europe. The US has demonstrably been working to enable and encourage Europe to sanction Russia.
clearwind 5y ago
> Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? I think North Korea has some comparability - the West provides aid in spite of an antagonistic ruler. But in similar vein the West would prefer both rulers to spend more time working for their citizens’ economic wellbeing than on militaristic projects.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  > But in similar vein the West would prefer both rulers to spend more time working for their citizens’ economic wellbeing than on militaristic projects. Is there evidence of that? Suppose for a minute that the NK regime was not crazy and only tried to pursue Communism. Then they would be similar to all the other Socialist/Communist states that the West wants to fail so that it can point to them and say that Socialism/Communism doesn’t work.
clearwind 5y ago
> I can discern exactly one testable hypothesis from this: that the US would be more willing than Europe to impose sanctions. This idea has already been proven to be wrong. Incorrect - the US is more willing to impose a ban on Russian oil. This supports the hypothesis.
wirelessalcohol 5y ago
> Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? Famine WILL happen..... Russia and Ukraine produce much of the worlds grain.(And Russian gas is massively used to manufacture fertilizer) Russia and Ukraine together account for around 30% of internationally traded wheat. Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60644376 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60644376 If this war is not stopped immediately, the world will experience a drop of global supply between 10 per cent to 50 per cent of major agrarian products including wheat, barley, corn, rapeseed, and sunflower oil Source: https://www.ft.com/content/02095093-329b-4b66-9f80-13d07350014c https://www.ft.com/content/02095093-329b-4b66-9f80-13d073500...

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

> Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? Capable of yes, willing to no, but at this point it may not be up to them; if Russian logistics fails, people may starve before it's even known.

sanxiyn 5y ago
Why would Russian logistics fail?
- vixen99 5y ago
  Their military logistics have not worked well to date much to the surprise of many.
  - sanxiyn 5y ago
    Yes, but that's very different from food logistics failing in Russia so "people may starve". That sounds extremely unlikely.

lb1lf 5y ago

-What you are witnessing is not sanctions. Per Kremlin new-speak, it is 'special economic operations'.

type0 5y ago
Putin said it's economic act of war

Traster 5y ago

I don't think it's true to say that Europe and the US are equally willing to apply sanctions. The entire theme of the months before the invasion was that the US was willing to go fast and hard on sanctions whilst European countries were largely split. As it turns out Russia's actions were so extreme that essentially it collapsed that split. But that's also because Europe is far more affected by Russia's war on Ukraine than the US. You see this in the exceptions to the sanctions- gas & oil that Europe is dependent on, and the support the US is providing in terms of procuring LNG for Europe. The US has demonstrably been working to enable and encourage Europe to sanction Russia.

clearwind 5y ago

> Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? I think North Korea has some comparability - the West provides aid in spite of an antagonistic ruler. But in similar vein the West would prefer both rulers to spend more time working for their citizens’ economic wellbeing than on militaristic projects.

avgcorrection 5y ago
> But in similar vein the West would prefer both rulers to spend more time working for their citizens’ economic wellbeing than on militaristic projects. Is there evidence of that? Suppose for a minute that the NK regime was not crazy and only tried to pursue Communism. Then they would be similar to all the other Socialist/Communist states that the West wants to fail so that it can point to them and say that Socialism/Communism doesn’t work.

clearwind 5y ago

> I can discern exactly one testable hypothesis from this: that the US would be more willing than Europe to impose sanctions. This idea has already been proven to be wrong. Incorrect - the US is more willing to impose a ban on Russian oil. This supports the hypothesis.

wirelessalcohol 5y ago

> Does anyone believe the EU and US are capable of and willing to degrade the Russian economy to the point of mass famine? Famine WILL happen..... Russia and Ukraine produce much of the worlds grain.(And Russian gas is massively used to manufacture fertilizer) Russia and Ukraine together account for around 30% of internationally traded wheat. Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60644376 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60644376 If this war is not stopped immediately, the world will experience a drop of global supply between 10 per cent to 50 per cent of major agrarian products including wheat, barley, corn, rapeseed, and sunflower oil Source: https://www.ft.com/content/02095093-329b-4b66-9f80-13d07350014c https://www.ft.com/content/02095093-329b-4b66-9f80-13d073500...