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Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got ba
by MrRiddle 5y ago
Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.
- saiya-jin 5y agoIts a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion. By now we all see that Russian words are less than farts in the wind, meaningless blabber with no face value. This all was the reason why they resisted in the first place, they have good memories of brutal Russian oppression from all of 20th century. Why should they give up everything now? Doesn't make any sense.
- cf141q5325 5y agoSo what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.
- sofixa 5y ago> So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot of blood and destruction, but the alternative isn't great either - being subjugated by a brutal tyrant who has no qualms murdering those who oppose him isn't a walk in the park either.
- q1w2 5y agoYou're so brave with other people's lives.
- sofixa 5y agoI'm not making the choice for anyone. Ukrainians are deciding for themselves and bravely fighting against the invaders.
- MrRiddle 5y agoSo in other words, you’re prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, as long as it hurts Russia?
- sofixa 5y agoNo, Ukrainians seem to prefer to fight to the last man/woman, and considering the weaknesses that Russia reeks of, they have realistic hope.
- lalaland1125 5y agoWhy are you denying the agency of the Ukrainian people? They are the ones choosing to fight. Look at the polls. Look at the interviews. Look at all the people there voluntarily picking up arms to defend their country.
- xdennis 5y ago> How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Russians, not Ukrainians. Ukrainians will defend their country and the Russians won't have the stomach for a prolonged insurgency, just like in Afghanistan. Afghanistan led to the fall of the USSR, and Ukraine will now lead to the fall and breakup of Russia.
- cf141q5325 5y agoA prolonged insurgency needs Ukrainians there to fight. That is something Russia can fix. What ever solution you propose will have a cost in Ukrainian lives and that cost is largely determined with what Russia is willing to do. With their ruthlessness reducing their casualties massively.
- q1w2 5y agoHe is referring to the deal offered PRIOR to the invasion. The deal that Ukraine commit to never joining NATO and agree to recognize Crimea as Russian. In retrospect, that was better than Ukrainian cities being absolutely destroyed. The rest of us are very keyboard brave with Ukrainian lives - telling them to fight to the end. ...but you would not be so brave if you had to live through this yourself.
- MrRiddle 5y agoExactly, how many cities have to be destroyed before they sign? And they will be destroyed if they don’t fold. There is exactly one way of ending this, only difference is how much Ukraine is willing to pay in blood and resources before they sign.
- falcolas 5y agoThis is the language of bullies. "Do this or we'll hurt you." "You did that, so now do this, or we'll hurt you." And then they hurt you anyways.
- AnimalMuppet 5y agoYeah. The "deal" being offered gives me this "The Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate" vibe.
- glogla 5y agoPutin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture. His Soviet predecessors have a few genocides in their name. Imagine yourself saying the same thing to Jews and WW2.
- alkonaut 5y agoKyiv should sign the agreement of not joining NATO, since it can now keep it's leadership and prevent decapitation occupation. Sign whatever makes Russia happy and have them leave. Then rebuild the city. Then pack the country completely full of millions of Western troops and material. Then join NATO. If Russia thinks the violation of the agreement is worth starting a global war over, let them shoot first. Show russia what an agreement is worth, when they say "humanitarian corridors are opened" followed by bombing them.