6 ms·

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms o

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification" and "demilitarization" of Ukraine. However the government in Kiev sharply rejects the demand for neutral status. https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/russland-ukraine-gespraeche-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/russland-ukraine-ge... There is an actual war. Russia wants something that the Ukrainian government sharply rejects. They are in range of multiple cities and gave evacuation notices days ago. What do you think will happen next? Why wouldnt the next step be Grozny? Because the western public is outraged and appalled? Because those things dont happen in todays day and age? There can be no NATO intervention without triggering WW3. Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach. If Ukraine continues to resist the very likely result is that it will burn. Feelings and stories dont change any of that. Russian artillery will likely turn house after house, street after street and city after city into rubble. Not some individual shelters, not some tv stations. Everything.

MrRiddle 5y ago
Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Its a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion. By now we all see that Russian words are less than farts in the wind, meaningless blabber with no face value. This all was the reason why they resisted in the first place, they have good memories of brutal Russian oppression from all of 20th century. Why should they give up everything now? Doesn't make any sense.
  - cf141q5325 5y ago
    So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      > So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot of blood and destruction, but the alternative isn't great either - being subjugated by a brutal tyrant who has no qualms murdering those who oppose him isn't a walk in the park either.
      - q1w2 5y ago
        You're so brave with other people's lives.
        sofixa 5y ago
        I'm not making the choice for anyone. Ukrainians are deciding for themselves and bravely fighting against the invaders.
      - MrRiddle 5y ago
        So in other words, you’re prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, as long as it hurts Russia?
        sofixa 5y ago
        No, Ukrainians seem to prefer to fight to the last man/woman, and considering the weaknesses that Russia reeks of, they have realistic hope.
- glogla 5y ago
  Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture. His Soviet predecessors have a few genocides in their name. Imagine yourself saying the same thing to Jews and WW2.
  - moltke 5y ago
    [flagged]
  - vogre 5y ago
    > Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture proof?
    - xdennis 5y ago
      Putler literally broadcast this before the invasion.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Kyiv should sign the agreement of not joining NATO, since it can now keep it's leadership and prevent decapitation occupation. Sign whatever makes Russia happy and have them leave. Then rebuild the city. Then pack the country completely full of millions of Western troops and material. Then join NATO. If Russia thinks the violation of the agreement is worth starting a global war over, let them shoot first. Show russia what an agreement is worth, when they say "humanitarian corridors are opened" followed by bombing them.
fabian2k 5y ago
Just because Russia has no qualms about committing war crimes and slaughtering civilians doesn't mean we can't be outraged by this. Outrage about killing civilians is entirely justified.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  Sure but depending how it is framed it has very real consequences. Just see the other post below you, cynically, already downvoted. It rallies people up in some self-righteous parallel reality cheering on the conflict quelling any voice of reason. After all there is the archetypal underdog you know and love from movies, surely the eagles will come any moment now. Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just take what ever demands Russia has now instead of in what ever time it takes to install a puppet regime in the rubble. And while some are forced to stay there due to conscription, quite a lot seem to be caught up in a nationalistic fever and delusional belief that "the West will stand with them". The only thing the west will do is ship outdated weapon to give Russia their Vietnam. Which unfortunately for the Ukrainian people will be fought in their hometowns. edit: Or answering it shorter, Outrage doesnt justify loosing touch with reality. Which already was the initial statement
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just take what ever demands Russia has now instead of in what ever time it takes to install a puppet regime in the rubble. And while some are forced to stay there due to conscription, quite a lot seem to be caught up in a nationalistic fever and delusional belief that "the West will stand with them". They don't want to submit to tyranny and they don't want to be ruled by Moscow, let alone Putin. I wouldn't either, and i don't get who would. Why would they submit to the invader actively slaughtering their neighbours, friends, countrymen? Most of them are aware that Russia cannot win. They cannot hope to occupy and rule Ukraine if Ukrainians don't want them to. Why submit then?
    - cf141q5325 5y ago
      Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. Russia not able to win would look like Syria. Syria is a failed state propped up by Russia and Iran carved up by superpowers with the local population at their whim. We also dont live in 2000 anymore. As far as i am aware Ukraine didnt get any noteworthy anti air shipments. Stinger are useless for anything except passenger planes and some older helicopters. You wont shoot any jets down with it. And once doctrine switches back to standard artillery bombardment there isnt going to be much else to shoot at. All of this not mentioning drone warfare and the ability to identify what they deem hostile elements. Russia is only limited in how cruel they are going to get in this. Of course they can win, it could just become very very horrible. If you think this conflict will look like Titos partisans if escalated further, think more Grozny combined with the treatment of the Uyghurs. edit: Think about that way, getting rid of everyone who still holds your opinion, that >Most of them are aware that Russia cannot win. They cannot hope to occupy and rule Ukraine if Ukrainians don't want them to. Why submit then? after a few months of classical bombardment is by now a trivial task. Same with the larger group who would do something about that. And even if you somehow could hide creating refugee waves is a very attractive geopolitical tool for Russia. It is that bad.
misja111 5y ago
> There can be no NATO intervention without triggering WW3. Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach. I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces. Also I don't agree with your second point. 'Any sanctions left' here means actually more than the entire packet of sanctions that the West has taken so far. The West spends hundreds of billions each year on Russion gas and oil. Sanctioning this would seriously hurt the Russian economy and Putin's war chest. Yes, it would also hurt the European economy, but surely many magnitudes less than a WW3.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  >I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces. I meant its not possible. You cant have a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces in Ukraine without triggering ww3. So the hope that NATO might intervene is badly misplaced in my opinion. >Yes, it would also hurt the European economy, but surely many magnitudes less than a WW3. Yes, another bad wording, thank you. Add an "and any...". I think the oil sanctions are unlikely solely because the European economies wont be able to handle the impact. And with no NATO intervention (due to ww3) and no sanctions on oil(due to economic impact), i dont see much margin for actions left. Am i missing something?
happytoexplain 5y ago
You're phrasing implies that outrage is somehow naive, or that outrage is somehow mutually exclusive with realistic expectations, but I'm not sure why.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  Thanks for the heads up. You are the second one who assumed that, its the missing "some" right? >It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. I tried to convey that it seems to me that some people, some willfully some in an emotional tailspin some simply distracted, care more about the story then its implications in reality. edit: Meaning that while it isnt mutually exclusive, it seems to be the reason some people do it. Which isnt surprising since its an emotional reaction that requires effort and the will to keep out of a rational consideration. Its a behavior i keep noticing but havent found a good description for yet. Sorry for the confusion.
HellDunkel 5y ago
I disagree. There can and should be a Nato intervention. Maybe Ww3 is what follows next but that doesnt mean it will be a nuclear desaster. If we can send stingers we can send jets. If we can send jets we can send pilots. Step be step we can increase pressure. Putin is a strategic player, he is cold blooded not red headed.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  You could however also be wrong and the reason for triggering the start of the end of the species. So maybe dont?
  - HellDunkel 5y ago
    Appeasement politics during the nazi aera has brought suffering beyond words. I feel we ow to the victims of that time to never let this happen again- no matter what.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  Putin is absolutely capable of tactical nuking military sites and airbases within Ukraine. He's probably willing to do that to bordering NATO countries if planes are flying out of them and Putin's back is against the wall. He'll take that next step that you can't fathom in order to stop you, since he figures you'll back down and won't escalate. Then, if we launch try to take out his nuclear capacity then he must launch all his missiles, and you've got WWIII and the end of the species more or less. If you play the tit-for-tat ratcheting up escalation game with Putin then all of humanity is going to lose that one. Right now its somewhat restrained since his generals won't want to launch nukes at NATO over the aid that has been given so far. When you cross a certain line so that Putin can argue that NATO bases in Europe are the proverbial dagger pointed at the heart of Russia and they must go so that Russia doesn't fall, then its much more likely that you've handed him the rationale for a tactical nuclear strike that his generals will follow.
  - HellDunkel 5y ago
    I agree that he is not Saddam Hussain and we should not try to hunt him. But as of right now his back is not against the wall at all.
chinathrow 5y ago
> Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach. Oh yes we would be able to stomach that. Better we start right now. Rig up production of solar/wind/thermal energy at a war-scale level, deploy faster than anything else. Heck if not when, this is the time to become independent from oil producing dictatorships.

MrRiddle 5y ago

Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.

saiya-jin 5y ago
Its a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion. By now we all see that Russian words are less than farts in the wind, meaningless blabber with no face value. This all was the reason why they resisted in the first place, they have good memories of brutal Russian oppression from all of 20th century. Why should they give up everything now? Doesn't make any sense.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot of blood and destruction, but the alternative isn't great either - being subjugated by a brutal tyrant who has no qualms murdering those who oppose him isn't a walk in the park either.
    - q1w2 5y ago
      You're so brave with other people's lives.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        I'm not making the choice for anyone. Ukrainians are deciding for themselves and bravely fighting against the invaders.
    - MrRiddle 5y ago
      So in other words, you’re prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, as long as it hurts Russia?
      - sofixa 5y ago
        No, Ukrainians seem to prefer to fight to the last man/woman, and considering the weaknesses that Russia reeks of, they have realistic hope.
glogla 5y ago
Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture. His Soviet predecessors have a few genocides in their name. Imagine yourself saying the same thing to Jews and WW2.
- moltke 5y ago
  [flagged]
- vogre 5y ago
  > Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture proof?
  - xdennis 5y ago
    Putler literally broadcast this before the invasion.
alkonaut 5y ago
Kyiv should sign the agreement of not joining NATO, since it can now keep it's leadership and prevent decapitation occupation. Sign whatever makes Russia happy and have them leave. Then rebuild the city. Then pack the country completely full of millions of Western troops and material. Then join NATO. If Russia thinks the violation of the agreement is worth starting a global war over, let them shoot first. Show russia what an agreement is worth, when they say "humanitarian corridors are opened" followed by bombing them.

fabian2k 5y ago

Just because Russia has no qualms about committing war crimes and slaughtering civilians doesn't mean we can't be outraged by this. Outrage about killing civilians is entirely justified.

cf141q5325 5y ago
Sure but depending how it is framed it has very real consequences. Just see the other post below you, cynically, already downvoted. It rallies people up in some self-righteous parallel reality cheering on the conflict quelling any voice of reason. After all there is the archetypal underdog you know and love from movies, surely the eagles will come any moment now. Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just take what ever demands Russia has now instead of in what ever time it takes to install a puppet regime in the rubble. And while some are forced to stay there due to conscription, quite a lot seem to be caught up in a nationalistic fever and delusional belief that "the West will stand with them". The only thing the west will do is ship outdated weapon to give Russia their Vietnam. Which unfortunately for the Ukrainian people will be fought in their hometowns. edit: Or answering it shorter, Outrage doesnt justify loosing touch with reality. Which already was the initial statement
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just take what ever demands Russia has now instead of in what ever time it takes to install a puppet regime in the rubble. And while some are forced to stay there due to conscription, quite a lot seem to be caught up in a nationalistic fever and delusional belief that "the West will stand with them". They don't want to submit to tyranny and they don't want to be ruled by Moscow, let alone Putin. I wouldn't either, and i don't get who would. Why would they submit to the invader actively slaughtering their neighbours, friends, countrymen? Most of them are aware that Russia cannot win. They cannot hope to occupy and rule Ukraine if Ukrainians don't want them to. Why submit then?
  - cf141q5325 5y ago
    Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. Russia not able to win would look like Syria. Syria is a failed state propped up by Russia and Iran carved up by superpowers with the local population at their whim. We also dont live in 2000 anymore. As far as i am aware Ukraine didnt get any noteworthy anti air shipments. Stinger are useless for anything except passenger planes and some older helicopters. You wont shoot any jets down with it. And once doctrine switches back to standard artillery bombardment there isnt going to be much else to shoot at. All of this not mentioning drone warfare and the ability to identify what they deem hostile elements. Russia is only limited in how cruel they are going to get in this. Of course they can win, it could just become very very horrible. If you think this conflict will look like Titos partisans if escalated further, think more Grozny combined with the treatment of the Uyghurs. edit: Think about that way, getting rid of everyone who still holds your opinion, that >Most of them are aware that Russia cannot win. They cannot hope to occupy and rule Ukraine if Ukrainians don't want them to. Why submit then? after a few months of classical bombardment is by now a trivial task. Same with the larger group who would do something about that. And even if you somehow could hide creating refugee waves is a very attractive geopolitical tool for Russia. It is that bad.

misja111 5y ago

> There can be no NATO intervention without triggering WW3. Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach. I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces. Also I don't agree with your second point. 'Any sanctions left' here means actually more than the entire packet of sanctions that the West has taken so far. The West spends hundreds of billions each year on Russion gas and oil. Sanctioning this would seriously hurt the Russian economy and Putin's war chest. Yes, it would also hurt the European economy, but surely many magnitudes less than a WW3.

cf141q5325 5y ago
>I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces. I meant its not possible. You cant have a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces in Ukraine without triggering ww3. So the hope that NATO might intervene is badly misplaced in my opinion. >Yes, it would also hurt the European economy, but surely many magnitudes less than a WW3. Yes, another bad wording, thank you. Add an "and any...". I think the oil sanctions are unlikely solely because the European economies wont be able to handle the impact. And with no NATO intervention (due to ww3) and no sanctions on oil(due to economic impact), i dont see much margin for actions left. Am i missing something?

happytoexplain 5y ago

You're phrasing implies that outrage is somehow naive, or that outrage is somehow mutually exclusive with realistic expectations, but I'm not sure why.

cf141q5325 5y ago
Thanks for the heads up. You are the second one who assumed that, its the missing "some" right? >It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. I tried to convey that it seems to me that some people, some willfully some in an emotional tailspin some simply distracted, care more about the story then its implications in reality. edit: Meaning that while it isnt mutually exclusive, it seems to be the reason some people do it. Which isnt surprising since its an emotional reaction that requires effort and the will to keep out of a rational consideration. Its a behavior i keep noticing but havent found a good description for yet. Sorry for the confusion.

HellDunkel 5y ago

I disagree. There can and should be a Nato intervention. Maybe Ww3 is what follows next but that doesnt mean it will be a nuclear desaster. If we can send stingers we can send jets. If we can send jets we can send pilots. Step be step we can increase pressure. Putin is a strategic player, he is cold blooded not red headed.

cf141q5325 5y ago
You could however also be wrong and the reason for triggering the start of the end of the species. So maybe dont?
- HellDunkel 5y ago
  Appeasement politics during the nazi aera has brought suffering beyond words. I feel we ow to the victims of that time to never let this happen again- no matter what.
lamontcg 5y ago
Putin is absolutely capable of tactical nuking military sites and airbases within Ukraine. He's probably willing to do that to bordering NATO countries if planes are flying out of them and Putin's back is against the wall. He'll take that next step that you can't fathom in order to stop you, since he figures you'll back down and won't escalate. Then, if we launch try to take out his nuclear capacity then he must launch all his missiles, and you've got WWIII and the end of the species more or less. If you play the tit-for-tat ratcheting up escalation game with Putin then all of humanity is going to lose that one. Right now its somewhat restrained since his generals won't want to launch nukes at NATO over the aid that has been given so far. When you cross a certain line so that Putin can argue that NATO bases in Europe are the proverbial dagger pointed at the heart of Russia and they must go so that Russia doesn't fall, then its much more likely that you've handed him the rationale for a tactical nuclear strike that his generals will follow.
- HellDunkel 5y ago
  I agree that he is not Saddam Hussain and we should not try to hunt him. But as of right now his back is not against the wall at all.

chinathrow 5y ago

> Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach. Oh yes we would be able to stomach that. Better we start right now. Rig up production of solar/wind/thermal energy at a war-scale level, deploy faster than anything else. Heck if not when, this is the time to become independent from oil producing dictatorships.