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Don't think the logic is the same. First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets. Second I think there are a lot of people who p

Don't think the logic is the same. First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets. Second I think there are a lot of people who profit from a cold/warm war, especially there.

oblio 5y ago
The Palestinians are obviously under attack, let's not kid ourselves. To this day I don't know where I stand in this conflict, since I understand many of the subtleties of the conflict. But that part is clear, Palestine <<is>> under attack. Israely is knowingly "salamy tactic-ing" Palestine. They're slowly chipping away at their regions. They're destroying Palestine through administrative abuse. It's like slowly being crushed by one of those car compactors. I have no idea what the correct reactions in this situation is.
- MichaelRazum 5y ago
  So you deny that Hamas a terrorist organization send rockets at civilians? They got their territory. Why send rockets? The reason it is rational for them. They need to be in power and get the funding through destruction. By the way some more example where the hate comes from: https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-textbooks-contain-anti-semitism-incitement/ https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-...
  - oblio 5y ago
    I'm not denying anything. I'm just saying that if you were a member of a population that's being squeezed out of their land, day by day, in a country that at best, if you try to integrate, treats you like a second hand citizen, you can't say for sure what your reaction would be. You could try to pretend it would be a peaceful reaction, but you can't say for sure. Nobody can.
    - MichaelRazum 5y ago
      I think you have to distinguish. First the Arab citizens aren't treated any differently that any other citizen. Maybe the personal feelings might be that they are treated differently but definitely not on the institutional level. They are a lot of Doctors and people in high positions there, so they enjoy kind of the best life standard they could have in the middle east. "squeezed out of their land". The Hamas got untouched territory. They could have build a paradise there. Nobody wants this part of the land. So again why send rockets? There is simple no reason - only to stay in power and get the donations.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        Israel doesn't want East Jerusalem and isn't creating illegal settlements there and in the West Bank, while simultaneously expelling Palestinians ?
        MichaelRazum 5y ago
        "expelling Palestinians" please provide facts. You may mean "Sheikh Jarrah", which got sued by the owners, since they don't pay the rent. Just building settlements. So providing homes for people does't justify rockets and violence in my opinion. Settlements can be removed later if it is unacceptable for a Palestinian state to have some jew's
        oblio 5y ago
        Building "settlements" on land that is not part of your country has a name. It's called "occupation". And the Palestinian government like <<any>> sovereign state on this planet, is allowed to decide who builds what where. Again, salami tactics. Brilliant strategy, but awful from a humanitarian point of view. How to strangle another country, kill it by a thousand paper cuts.
        sofixa 5y ago
        Oh that was a good deflection and a decent try at shifting the goalposts! Sheikh Jarrah is only one of many cases. > Just building settlements That's a very weird way of putting it. Illegal settlements, in lands that don't belong to Israel, so it's not up to Israel to decide what to do with it. It's obviously a population displacement tactic - then there'd be Jews there, Israel can claim the lands, and if Palestine does decide to remove them, Israel will cry genocide and step in.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    That's a bullshit whataboutism-adjacent answer and you should know that. Hamas use terrorist tactics and are a terrorist organisation. That doesn't in any way change the apartheid-like regime Palestine is under, and the unfairness of all the terrible treatment Palestinians suffer at the hands of Israel. And Hamas' tactics are understandable ( but unsupportable) - what are they to do to fight against Israeli atrocities, expulsions, blockade, apartheid? Submit and accept living in ghettos ? You can't blame them for making a different choice.
    - MichaelRazum 5y ago
      apartheid-like regime Palestine, ok now I understand..
vkou 5y ago
> First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets No, they are simply under permanent military occupation, with no end in sight, no path to enfranchisement. At best, they are living in an apartheid state. At worst, they had a war declared on them, and they aren't even permitted to surrender. If some third party invaded the United States, and kettled Americans to live in isolated enclaves and ghettos, with no freedom of movement, national sovereignty, or pathway to assimilation into the occupier's new nation, that occupier might be subject to the occasional rock and rocket attack, too.
- MichaelRazum 5y ago
  An apartheid state. That is clearly wrong. An Arab party is in the government. Even they said that they don't see Israel as an apartheid state. Most of them are living much much better than in any neighbor country.
  - vkou 5y ago
    Some arabs in Israel are permitted to vote, just like how some African Americans living in the north had the right to vote pre-CRA/VRA. Pre-CRA/VRA America was also an apartheid state. Most do not have that right, despite being born there, and having no other home country. That some of them are enfranchised is a fig leaf over an apartheid state.
    - MichaelRazum 5y ago
      I have to call out this. This is clearly wrong. Every Israeli citizen is allowed to vote. That is a fact. I don't know where you get your facts.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        Are Palestinian Arabs Israeli citizens?
      - vkou 5y ago
        > Every Israeli citizen is allowed to vote. The rhetorical sleight-of-hand that you are obscuring is that most Arabs living in Israel are not, and will never be allowed to become Israeli citizens. This is despite both being born, and living on a territory that is very clearly under the military control of the Knesset. It's either an indeterminate military occupation, or its apartheid. I don't care what you want to call it, but you have to pick one or the other, because in 2022, Palestine simply does not exist as a free, sovereign nation. It's either a civil territory of Israel, or occupied by Israel.

oblio 5y ago

The Palestinians are obviously under attack, let's not kid ourselves. To this day I don't know where I stand in this conflict, since I understand many of the subtleties of the conflict. But that part is clear, Palestine <<is>> under attack. Israely is knowingly "salamy tactic-ing" Palestine. They're slowly chipping away at their regions. They're destroying Palestine through administrative abuse. It's like slowly being crushed by one of those car compactors. I have no idea what the correct reactions in this situation is.

MichaelRazum 5y ago
So you deny that Hamas a terrorist organization send rockets at civilians? They got their territory. Why send rockets? The reason it is rational for them. They need to be in power and get the funding through destruction. By the way some more example where the hate comes from: https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-textbooks-contain-anti-semitism-incitement/ https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-...
- oblio 5y ago
  I'm not denying anything. I'm just saying that if you were a member of a population that's being squeezed out of their land, day by day, in a country that at best, if you try to integrate, treats you like a second hand citizen, you can't say for sure what your reaction would be. You could try to pretend it would be a peaceful reaction, but you can't say for sure. Nobody can.
  - MichaelRazum 5y ago
    I think you have to distinguish. First the Arab citizens aren't treated any differently that any other citizen. Maybe the personal feelings might be that they are treated differently but definitely not on the institutional level. They are a lot of Doctors and people in high positions there, so they enjoy kind of the best life standard they could have in the middle east. "squeezed out of their land". The Hamas got untouched territory. They could have build a paradise there. Nobody wants this part of the land. So again why send rockets? There is simple no reason - only to stay in power and get the donations.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      Israel doesn't want East Jerusalem and isn't creating illegal settlements there and in the West Bank, while simultaneously expelling Palestinians ?
      - MichaelRazum 5y ago
        "expelling Palestinians" please provide facts. You may mean "Sheikh Jarrah", which got sued by the owners, since they don't pay the rent. Just building settlements. So providing homes for people does't justify rockets and violence in my opinion. Settlements can be removed later if it is unacceptable for a Palestinian state to have some jew's
        oblio 5y ago
        Building "settlements" on land that is not part of your country has a name. It's called "occupation". And the Palestinian government like <<any>> sovereign state on this planet, is allowed to decide who builds what where. Again, salami tactics. Brilliant strategy, but awful from a humanitarian point of view. How to strangle another country, kill it by a thousand paper cuts.
        sofixa 5y ago
        Oh that was a good deflection and a decent try at shifting the goalposts! Sheikh Jarrah is only one of many cases. > Just building settlements That's a very weird way of putting it. Illegal settlements, in lands that don't belong to Israel, so it's not up to Israel to decide what to do with it. It's obviously a population displacement tactic - then there'd be Jews there, Israel can claim the lands, and if Palestine does decide to remove them, Israel will cry genocide and step in.
- sofixa 5y ago
  That's a bullshit whataboutism-adjacent answer and you should know that. Hamas use terrorist tactics and are a terrorist organisation. That doesn't in any way change the apartheid-like regime Palestine is under, and the unfairness of all the terrible treatment Palestinians suffer at the hands of Israel. And Hamas' tactics are understandable ( but unsupportable) - what are they to do to fight against Israeli atrocities, expulsions, blockade, apartheid? Submit and accept living in ghettos ? You can't blame them for making a different choice.
  - MichaelRazum 5y ago
    apartheid-like regime Palestine, ok now I understand..

vkou 5y ago

> First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets No, they are simply under permanent military occupation, with no end in sight, no path to enfranchisement. At best, they are living in an apartheid state. At worst, they had a war declared on them, and they aren't even permitted to surrender. If some third party invaded the United States, and kettled Americans to live in isolated enclaves and ghettos, with no freedom of movement, national sovereignty, or pathway to assimilation into the occupier's new nation, that occupier might be subject to the occasional rock and rocket attack, too.

MichaelRazum 5y ago
An apartheid state. That is clearly wrong. An Arab party is in the government. Even they said that they don't see Israel as an apartheid state. Most of them are living much much better than in any neighbor country.
- vkou 5y ago
  Some arabs in Israel are permitted to vote, just like how some African Americans living in the north had the right to vote pre-CRA/VRA. Pre-CRA/VRA America was also an apartheid state. Most do not have that right, despite being born there, and having no other home country. That some of them are enfranchised is a fig leaf over an apartheid state.
  - MichaelRazum 5y ago
    I have to call out this. This is clearly wrong. Every Israeli citizen is allowed to vote. That is a fact. I don't know where you get your facts.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      Are Palestinian Arabs Israeli citizens?
    - vkou 5y ago
      > Every Israeli citizen is allowed to vote. The rhetorical sleight-of-hand that you are obscuring is that most Arabs living in Israel are not, and will never be allowed to become Israeli citizens. This is despite both being born, and living on a territory that is very clearly under the military control of the Knesset. It's either an indeterminate military occupation, or its apartheid. I don't care what you want to call it, but you have to pick one or the other, because in 2022, Palestine simply does not exist as a free, sovereign nation. It's either a civil territory of Israel, or occupied by Israel.