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I think you can't leave out how much html/css/js has progressed since Netscape Navigator in late 90'ies. Modern browsers and web backends makes it so much fast

I think you can't leave out how much html/css/js has progressed since Netscape Navigator in late 90'ies. Modern browsers and web backends makes it so much faster to implement functionality that takes forever to implement in a native Desktop app. People who are "native app" envangelists tend to completely ignore this major difference. e.g. "Auto Layout" in Swift is just a bare bones reimplementation of what we have in modern css with flexbox and grid. also: it is much easier to collaborate with other people when you can just send them a link instead of "Word doc version 2, final, really final".

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
I don't know, I always feel much less productive doing web development rather than desktop. I've been doing some work with drawing on a canvas and it feels archaic compared to doing the same thing on Windows or macOS.
y7 5y ago
People that prefer native apps reason from the user's perspective, not the developer's. The user doesn't benefit from the fact that it's easier to get a web app up and running; they just see a GUI that is less responsive. And yes, a shared document is convenient for collaboration, but having the control of storing and being able to access a specific version offline on a device you own is also valuable.
jamil7 5y ago
Yeah that’s all true but we lost quite a lot in the transition too.
- rimliu 5y ago
  None of that is true, actually. It is only "true" for those, who have no idea of native SDKs capabilities.
  - jamil7 5y ago
    Fair enough, I chose to ignore the Auto Layout comment, I was more responding to the implied point of the web being networked-first and immediately shareable unlike desktop (again different story on mobile). The overall point I was trying to make was that this didn't come free and we lost a lot of functionality, user experience, performance and accessibility during this transition (especially on macOS).
rimliu 5y ago
> "Auto Layout" in Swift is just a bare bones reimplementation of what we have > in modern css with flexbox and grid. How to say "I have no idea about Auto Layout of Swift UI" without saying it. Not to mention that Auto Layout was introduced with OS X 10.7 Lion in2011 and iOS6 in 2012. CSS grid appeared in 2017 and viable support for flexbox around 2015. Interesting how they managed to do a "bare bones reimplementation" of something a few years before that something even came to live. Especially when those mechanisms are not very similar to each other. Auto Layout has it roots in Cassowary, and is constraints based, which neither CSS Grid or Flexbox are. People who never worked with native tech have no idea, how faster it is to do stuff on it, because you do not have to reinvent every small wheel and cog, unlike web tech. E.g. navigation stack which iPhone OS/iOS had since the day one and React Native was/is struggling for years to have it. Or table views and reusable cells. When you add SwiftUI into the mix the "web evangelists" claims about web-tech superiority start to sound as credible as Russian propaganda. I've been working with both stacks for years, and these nonsensical claims just make me sad.
- JaggerJo 5y ago
  Mostly agree. If you’ve done native app development you have seen the light. Problem is a lot of devs only ever did web development and think this is “ok”.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

I don't know, I always feel much less productive doing web development rather than desktop. I've been doing some work with drawing on a canvas and it feels archaic compared to doing the same thing on Windows or macOS.

y7 5y ago

People that prefer native apps reason from the user's perspective, not the developer's. The user doesn't benefit from the fact that it's easier to get a web app up and running; they just see a GUI that is less responsive. And yes, a shared document is convenient for collaboration, but having the control of storing and being able to access a specific version offline on a device you own is also valuable.

jamil7 5y ago

Yeah that’s all true but we lost quite a lot in the transition too.

rimliu 5y ago
None of that is true, actually. It is only "true" for those, who have no idea of native SDKs capabilities.
- jamil7 5y ago
  Fair enough, I chose to ignore the Auto Layout comment, I was more responding to the implied point of the web being networked-first and immediately shareable unlike desktop (again different story on mobile). The overall point I was trying to make was that this didn't come free and we lost a lot of functionality, user experience, performance and accessibility during this transition (especially on macOS).

rimliu 5y ago

> "Auto Layout" in Swift is just a bare bones reimplementation of what we have > in modern css with flexbox and grid. How to say "I have no idea about Auto Layout of Swift UI" without saying it. Not to mention that Auto Layout was introduced with OS X 10.7 Lion in2011 and iOS6 in 2012. CSS grid appeared in 2017 and viable support for flexbox around 2015. Interesting how they managed to do a "bare bones reimplementation" of something a few years before that something even came to live. Especially when those mechanisms are not very similar to each other. Auto Layout has it roots in Cassowary, and is constraints based, which neither CSS Grid or Flexbox are. People who never worked with native tech have no idea, how faster it is to do stuff on it, because you do not have to reinvent every small wheel and cog, unlike web tech. E.g. navigation stack which iPhone OS/iOS had since the day one and React Native was/is struggling for years to have it. Or table views and reusable cells. When you add SwiftUI into the mix the "web evangelists" claims about web-tech superiority start to sound as credible as Russian propaganda. I've been working with both stacks for years, and these nonsensical claims just make me sad.

JaggerJo 5y ago
Mostly agree. If you’ve done native app development you have seen the light. Problem is a lot of devs only ever did web development and think this is “ok”.