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“Real capitalism?” What you are describing is imaginary capitalism. Real capitalism is what we have right now, by definition. Every tweak and injustice in ou

“Real capitalism?” What you are describing is imaginary capitalism. Real capitalism is what we have right now, by definition. Every tweak and injustice in our current system is there for some reason or another- the externalized costs, the resource wars, the monopolies, the surveillance state. Those things are there because capitalism is structurally unstable without them. You can’t solve the problems capitalism created with more capitalism.

cyanydeez 5y ago
hes describing a functional regulatory environment, not ond captured by modern day nobles.
- gaze 5y ago
  You say this like it isn’t inevitable
  - Teever 5y ago
    Every system is inevitably corrupted by shitty people. It's what they do. It isn't necessarily a condemnation of capitalism in particular, more of a recognition of human nature and how some aspects of it are diametrically opposed to the other aspects of human nature that make institutions that try and prevent the worst of the corrupting elements.
ajuc 5y ago
I don't think it's inherently capitalist problem. My country got significantly more environmentally friendly since it switched from communism to capitalism in 1989. For one thing we decreased energy use by 1/3rd while increasing production, standards of living and exports significantly. The main thing that caused this was freeing energy prices (which increased them significantly in less than a decade - which made everybody invest in obvious energy-saving measures like house insulation). To illustrate: in last 30 years my parents moved from burning 4 ton of coal per winter to less than 2 (after insulating the house) to nothing (because they installed heat pump and solar panels last year). Another thins is open information about all sorts of indicators - publicly accessible measurements of air quality were introduced (before there was simply no data and officials lied about the threats while people living near industrial facilities died prematurely). A lot of problems people attribute to ideologies and systems of government are actually technical and could be solved independently of these things, simply by improving procedures, tinkering with incentives and improving education. EU has been a huge positive influence in all of these.
- fallingfrog 5y ago
  Fair points. The ussr in particular was notoriously terrible on environmental issues. I think what I would advocate is a third type of system that isn’t capitalism or heavy handed state communism- but as you point out the same criticisms I made of really existing capitalism can be applied to other systems as well. I wish I had a simple, concise answer to what we ought to do.

cyanydeez 5y ago

hes describing a functional regulatory environment, not ond captured by modern day nobles.

gaze 5y ago
You say this like it isn’t inevitable
- Teever 5y ago
  Every system is inevitably corrupted by shitty people. It's what they do. It isn't necessarily a condemnation of capitalism in particular, more of a recognition of human nature and how some aspects of it are diametrically opposed to the other aspects of human nature that make institutions that try and prevent the worst of the corrupting elements.

ajuc 5y ago

I don't think it's inherently capitalist problem. My country got significantly more environmentally friendly since it switched from communism to capitalism in 1989. For one thing we decreased energy use by 1/3rd while increasing production, standards of living and exports significantly. The main thing that caused this was freeing energy prices (which increased them significantly in less than a decade - which made everybody invest in obvious energy-saving measures like house insulation). To illustrate: in last 30 years my parents moved from burning 4 ton of coal per winter to less than 2 (after insulating the house) to nothing (because they installed heat pump and solar panels last year). Another thins is open information about all sorts of indicators - publicly accessible measurements of air quality were introduced (before there was simply no data and officials lied about the threats while people living near industrial facilities died prematurely). A lot of problems people attribute to ideologies and systems of government are actually technical and could be solved independently of these things, simply by improving procedures, tinkering with incentives and improving education. EU has been a huge positive influence in all of these.

fallingfrog 5y ago
Fair points. The ussr in particular was notoriously terrible on environmental issues. I think what I would advocate is a third type of system that isn’t capitalism or heavy handed state communism- but as you point out the same criticisms I made of really existing capitalism can be applied to other systems as well. I wish I had a simple, concise answer to what we ought to do.