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I think you may have to recheck those facts. All power sources are intermittent, and nuclear is no exception. Nuclear power plants go offline unexpectedly all

by Joeri 5y ago

I think you may have to recheck those facts. All power sources are intermittent, and nuclear is no exception. Nuclear power plants go offline unexpectedly all the time. Every energy grid needs a mix of sources to deal with intermittent production, preferably ones that are controllable and can follow loads. Nuclear power is not quick to follow loads. This makes it good for base load, somewhat able to do load following, and unable to handle peak loads. Currently peak loads are handled using fossil fuel plants. Even if a country embraces nuclear power wholesale they will still have to invest in storage as well if they want a green energy grid, to be able to fully handle peaks. Hydro (dam) storage is not what is being looked at in most places because of cost and climate impact (concrete), the current plans involve a mix of batteries and hydrogen. And finally, current nuclear power depends on uranium, and many countries have to import that, so it’s not quite geographically independent. There are approaches for nuclear power technologies that reduce the need for uranium, but all attempts to build those and run them at reasonable cost have failed.

Manuel_D 5y ago
No, nuclear plants go offline very rarely. The have the highest capacity factor of any source [1]. And more importantly, this downtime is scheduled. Where's your source for your claim that "nuclear power plants go offline unexpectedly all the time"? Nuclear power can be modulated by more aggressively cooling reactors. France has been able to operate a grid over 70% nuclear (over 80% at its peak) without issue, so these concerns about nuclear's inability to match shifting loads are demonstrably false. Nuclear plants are geographically independent. Sure, uranium has to be shipped. But that's the point: uranium fuel can be shipped. Rivers and valleys cannot be put in shipping containers and moved to where they're needed. Geothermal vents cannot either. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183680/us-average-capacity-factors-by-selected-energy-source-since-1998/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183680/us-average-capaci...
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > France has been able to operate a grid over 70% nuclear (over 80% at its peak) without issue, so these concerns about nuclear's inability to match shifting loads are demonstrably false. France is a perfect example that things can go south with nuclear, too. They operate 56 reactors, of which 17 (!) went unexpectedly offline last winter. Some had deferred maintenance due to the pandemic, others showed micro-fractures in pipes forcing other similar designed plants to go offline as well [1]. Not to mention their EPR projects that have been plagued by cost and time overruns that put Germany's infamous BER airport to shame. To make it worse, France always is proud of their nuclear technology and its supposed "green energy" mix... but the reality is, the nuclear plants are too slow to follow the demands of electric heating and so France imports a shitload of energy from Germany and the UK every winter [2]. To put it blunt: The German CO2 budget is suffering and we can't get rid of our coal stinkers because France can't be arsed to set up a resilient grid on their own. > Sure, uranium has to be shipped. But that's the point: uranium fuel can be shipped. And every time uranium fuel is shipped, you have massive protests from civilians, incurring a lot of side effects - acts of sabotage, blockades, expenses for police and judiciary system. Additionally, Russia is currently used as a dumping ground for French nuclear waste [3] and supplies 26% of the EU's consumption of enriched uranium [4]. tl;dr: France should STFU about their nuclear plants. Nuclear is a dead end unless "fusion is always 50 years in the future" becomes obsolete in the future, the only thing that will help us scraping by regarding CO2 emissions and keep us independent from Russian imperialism, Arabic oil sheiks and a potentially-going-bonkers-again USA is going big on solar and wind. [1]: https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/atomkraft-was-ist-mit-frankreichs-kernreaktoren-los-a-ad1f8a26-5db6-4637-b5b8-52d4e3ecb440 https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/atomkraft-was-is... [2]: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/frankreich-fuerchtet-sich-vor-energie-engpaessen-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/frankreich-fuerchtet-sich-vor... [3]: https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/umstrittene-transporte-frankreich-laedt-radioaktives-material-in-sibirien-ab-a-654843.html https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/umstrittene-tran... [4]: https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/ukraine-krieg-eu-ist-auch-von-russischem-uran-abhaengig-a-d9575895-93da-4274-a5e5-167f4d9d2f0f https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/ukraine-krieg-eu-...
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Your sources seem to be saying the opposite of what you're claiming. For instance the second one, through google translate, says: > France's Energy Minister Eric Besson criticized Germany's exit from nuclear power. He is convinced that this will lead to Germany importing more electricity from France in the near future. As a result, the Grande Nation has to face the problem of a possible power shortage. This is actually saying German imports from France will potentially cause an energy shortage, exacerbated by Germany's exit from nuclear generation. I'm not sure how this helps the point you're trying to make. For all the talk of France's failures, it's carbon intensity of electricity is far smaller than Germany's [1]. This is the actual measuring stick of success: how much carbon is released for each watt-hour of electricity? France is way below Germany on this. > And every time uranium fuel is shipped, you have massive protests from civilians, incurring a lot of side effects - acts of sabotage, blockades, expenses for police and judiciary system. So if people protest solar and wind we should just cancel those projects, too? This seems like a non-sensical objection. And lastly, it's strange to call nuclear a "dead" energy source when it's still generating more than wind and solar combined [2]. 1. https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emission-intensity-of-1 https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emission-intens... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation#Methods_of_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation#Methods...
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      > This is actually saying German imports from France will potentially cause an energy shortage, exacerbated by Germany's exit from nuclear generation Actually, both countries import and export energy from each other, we're importing from France outside the winter when we have shortfalls with renewables because our grid can't shift enough energy from North to South. The difference is that unlike France we don't go and pat ourselves on our shoulder for being oh so carbon friendly. That French claim to grandeur can only be made because everyone ignores that it depends on Germans and Brits. > This is the actual measuring stick of success: how much carbon is released for each watt-hour of electricity? France is way below Germany on this. Yeah, because we have a lot of old coal stinkers that drive up our g/kWh emission average - and because the followup emissions of nuclear plants (from construction and teardown of the plant as well as the operation of the nuclear waste storage and the mining, refining and transport of the fuel) have been underestimated [1]. The old figure used to be ~66 g/kWh whereas the actual upper bound is 180 g/kWh which is even more than natural gas (~117 kWh). The elephant in the room is followup costs though - nuclear power has a lot of these, from insurance in the disaster case to the teardown and storage of the waste. If these costs that are currently effectively offloaded to the taxpayer would be accounted for, nuclear power would be at 90 ct/kWh, and that's the optimistic case. > And lastly, it's strange to call nuclear a "dead" energy source when it's still generating more than wind and solar combined. It's a technological dead end for short-term woes. The most modern EPR reactor design takes a decade to build apiece, and every other design no matter which base technology has been vaporware to date. Even if we were to commence construction for a dozen plants now, they would only become available in the 2030s! We need solar and wind now, and actually smart grids where big consumers like heating systems and providers like electric cars can be coordinated centrally. [1]: https://www.dw.com/de/faktencheck-ist-atomenergie-klimafreundlich-was-kostet-strom-aus-kernkraft/a-59709250 https://www.dw.com/de/faktencheck-ist-atomenergie-klimafreun...

by Joeri 5y ago

Manuel_D 5y ago

No, nuclear plants go offline very rarely. The have the highest capacity factor of any source [1]. And more importantly, this downtime is scheduled. Where's your source for your claim that "nuclear power plants go offline unexpectedly all the time"? Nuclear power can be modulated by more aggressively cooling reactors. France has been able to operate a grid over 70% nuclear (over 80% at its peak) without issue, so these concerns about nuclear's inability to match shifting loads are demonstrably false. Nuclear plants are geographically independent. Sure, uranium has to be shipped. But that's the point: uranium fuel can be shipped. Rivers and valleys cannot be put in shipping containers and moved to where they're needed. Geothermal vents cannot either. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183680/us-average-capacity-factors-by-selected-energy-source-since-1998/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183680/us-average-capaci...

mschuster91 5y ago
> France has been able to operate a grid over 70% nuclear (over 80% at its peak) without issue, so these concerns about nuclear's inability to match shifting loads are demonstrably false. France is a perfect example that things can go south with nuclear, too. They operate 56 reactors, of which 17 (!) went unexpectedly offline last winter. Some had deferred maintenance due to the pandemic, others showed micro-fractures in pipes forcing other similar designed plants to go offline as well [1]. Not to mention their EPR projects that have been plagued by cost and time overruns that put Germany's infamous BER airport to shame. To make it worse, France always is proud of their nuclear technology and its supposed "green energy" mix... but the reality is, the nuclear plants are too slow to follow the demands of electric heating and so France imports a shitload of energy from Germany and the UK every winter [2]. To put it blunt: The German CO2 budget is suffering and we can't get rid of our coal stinkers because France can't be arsed to set up a resilient grid on their own. > Sure, uranium has to be shipped. But that's the point: uranium fuel can be shipped. And every time uranium fuel is shipped, you have massive protests from civilians, incurring a lot of side effects - acts of sabotage, blockades, expenses for police and judiciary system. Additionally, Russia is currently used as a dumping ground for French nuclear waste [3] and supplies 26% of the EU's consumption of enriched uranium [4]. tl;dr: France should STFU about their nuclear plants. Nuclear is a dead end unless "fusion is always 50 years in the future" becomes obsolete in the future, the only thing that will help us scraping by regarding CO2 emissions and keep us independent from Russian imperialism, Arabic oil sheiks and a potentially-going-bonkers-again USA is going big on solar and wind. [1]: https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/atomkraft-was-ist-mit-frankreichs-kernreaktoren-los-a-ad1f8a26-5db6-4637-b5b8-52d4e3ecb440 https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/atomkraft-was-is... [2]: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/frankreich-fuerchtet-sich-vor-energie-engpaessen-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/frankreich-fuerchtet-sich-vor... [3]: https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/umstrittene-transporte-frankreich-laedt-radioaktives-material-in-sibirien-ab-a-654843.html https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/umstrittene-tran... [4]: https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/ukraine-krieg-eu-ist-auch-von-russischem-uran-abhaengig-a-d9575895-93da-4274-a5e5-167f4d9d2f0f https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/ukraine-krieg-eu-...
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  Your sources seem to be saying the opposite of what you're claiming. For instance the second one, through google translate, says: > France's Energy Minister Eric Besson criticized Germany's exit from nuclear power. He is convinced that this will lead to Germany importing more electricity from France in the near future. As a result, the Grande Nation has to face the problem of a possible power shortage. This is actually saying German imports from France will potentially cause an energy shortage, exacerbated by Germany's exit from nuclear generation. I'm not sure how this helps the point you're trying to make. For all the talk of France's failures, it's carbon intensity of electricity is far smaller than Germany's [1]. This is the actual measuring stick of success: how much carbon is released for each watt-hour of electricity? France is way below Germany on this. > And every time uranium fuel is shipped, you have massive protests from civilians, incurring a lot of side effects - acts of sabotage, blockades, expenses for police and judiciary system. So if people protest solar and wind we should just cancel those projects, too? This seems like a non-sensical objection. And lastly, it's strange to call nuclear a "dead" energy source when it's still generating more than wind and solar combined [2]. 1. https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emission-intensity-of-1 https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emission-intens... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation#Methods_of_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation#Methods...
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > This is actually saying German imports from France will potentially cause an energy shortage, exacerbated by Germany's exit from nuclear generation Actually, both countries import and export energy from each other, we're importing from France outside the winter when we have shortfalls with renewables because our grid can't shift enough energy from North to South. The difference is that unlike France we don't go and pat ourselves on our shoulder for being oh so carbon friendly. That French claim to grandeur can only be made because everyone ignores that it depends on Germans and Brits. > This is the actual measuring stick of success: how much carbon is released for each watt-hour of electricity? France is way below Germany on this. Yeah, because we have a lot of old coal stinkers that drive up our g/kWh emission average - and because the followup emissions of nuclear plants (from construction and teardown of the plant as well as the operation of the nuclear waste storage and the mining, refining and transport of the fuel) have been underestimated [1]. The old figure used to be ~66 g/kWh whereas the actual upper bound is 180 g/kWh which is even more than natural gas (~117 kWh). The elephant in the room is followup costs though - nuclear power has a lot of these, from insurance in the disaster case to the teardown and storage of the waste. If these costs that are currently effectively offloaded to the taxpayer would be accounted for, nuclear power would be at 90 ct/kWh, and that's the optimistic case. > And lastly, it's strange to call nuclear a "dead" energy source when it's still generating more than wind and solar combined. It's a technological dead end for short-term woes. The most modern EPR reactor design takes a decade to build apiece, and every other design no matter which base technology has been vaporware to date. Even if we were to commence construction for a dozen plants now, they would only become available in the 2030s! We need solar and wind now, and actually smart grids where big consumers like heating systems and providers like electric cars can be coordinated centrally. [1]: https://www.dw.com/de/faktencheck-ist-atomenergie-klimafreundlich-was-kostet-strom-aus-kernkraft/a-59709250 https://www.dw.com/de/faktencheck-ist-atomenergie-klimafreun...