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> cross-country trucks, trains, and maritime shipping hydrogen has greater potential. On your list of things where hydrogen has potential, "trains" has got to

> cross-country trucks, trains, and maritime shipping hydrogen has greater potential. On your list of things where hydrogen has potential, "trains" has got to surely be typo?

retrac 5y ago
The total number of individual plants to replace is small (usually one or two per train, some tens of thousands across North America), and some existing propane/natural gas fired turbine-electric trains are probably suitable to retrofit. The US rail grid is almost entirely unelectrified, and electrification of long rural routes is both a large project and has high upfront costs, especially relative to the low utilization of some routes. Basically, hydrogen would be attractive for trains in North America for the same reason why most trains in North America are diesel, not electric. I suspect the answer for this niche is probably synthetic diesel though, as with synthetic jet fuel. If you already have the hydrogen, fixing it to some carbon is a relatively simple additional step.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > The US rail grid is almost entirely unelectrified Now the GP comment makes sense. I am certainly surprised but at least now it makes some sense.
  - nerdponx 5y ago
    Also, I think they were talking about freight trains, not passenger trains. Is rail freight powered by electric locomotives anywhere in the world?
    - retrac 5y ago
      Right. Freight and passenger rail are basically inverted in the USA and Europe. A large % of European passenger traffic is by rail, with only a tiny proportion of freight by rail. Across the Atlantic, the majority of US freight by tonne-km is by rail, while passenger rail is tiny. And yes. Electrified rail for freight is seen in small pockets in Western and Central Europe, even smaller pockets of North America [1]. It is widely used on the major lines in Russia and the majority of freight is electric. India has some electric freight. As does China, and the Chinese government has announced a project to, eventually, electrify all their freight lines. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Power_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Power_Railway
Manuel_D 5y ago
Batteries don't have the energy density to support hauling large masses of cargo over long distances [1]. Trains could be electrified, eliminating the requirement to carry fuel at all, but that requires building new infrastructure which may not be as economic in low-density regions in North America. Hydrogen gas has the best energy density per unit of mass of any chemical fuel source (nuclear blows it out of the water, mind you), and could prove to be the best option for decarbonizing freight trains. 1, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Energy_density.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Ene...
- tinco 5y ago
  Why would you put a battery in a train?
- stubish 5y ago
  Battery powered locomotives are being sold today and expected to be in operation soon, moving freight. https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/fmg-purchases-battery-electric-locomotives-from-progress-rail/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/fmg-purcha... details one deal in the news here recently, and there were also recently other stories about a sale to the US.

> cross-country trucks, trains, and maritime shipping hydrogen has greater potential. On your list of things where hydrogen has potential, "trains" has got to surely be typo?

retrac 5y ago

The total number of individual plants to replace is small (usually one or two per train, some tens of thousands across North America), and some existing propane/natural gas fired turbine-electric trains are probably suitable to retrofit. The US rail grid is almost entirely unelectrified, and electrification of long rural routes is both a large project and has high upfront costs, especially relative to the low utilization of some routes. Basically, hydrogen would be attractive for trains in North America for the same reason why most trains in North America are diesel, not electric. I suspect the answer for this niche is probably synthetic diesel though, as with synthetic jet fuel. If you already have the hydrogen, fixing it to some carbon is a relatively simple additional step.

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> The US rail grid is almost entirely unelectrified Now the GP comment makes sense. I am certainly surprised but at least now it makes some sense.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  Also, I think they were talking about freight trains, not passenger trains. Is rail freight powered by electric locomotives anywhere in the world?
  - retrac 5y ago
    Right. Freight and passenger rail are basically inverted in the USA and Europe. A large % of European passenger traffic is by rail, with only a tiny proportion of freight by rail. Across the Atlantic, the majority of US freight by tonne-km is by rail, while passenger rail is tiny. And yes. Electrified rail for freight is seen in small pockets in Western and Central Europe, even smaller pockets of North America [1]. It is widely used on the major lines in Russia and the majority of freight is electric. India has some electric freight. As does China, and the Chinese government has announced a project to, eventually, electrify all their freight lines. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Power_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Power_Railway

Manuel_D 5y ago

Batteries don't have the energy density to support hauling large masses of cargo over long distances [1]. Trains could be electrified, eliminating the requirement to carry fuel at all, but that requires building new infrastructure which may not be as economic in low-density regions in North America. Hydrogen gas has the best energy density per unit of mass of any chemical fuel source (nuclear blows it out of the water, mind you), and could prove to be the best option for decarbonizing freight trains. 1, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Energy_density.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Ene...

tinco 5y ago
Why would you put a battery in a train?
stubish 5y ago
Battery powered locomotives are being sold today and expected to be in operation soon, moving freight. https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/fmg-purchases-battery-electric-locomotives-from-progress-rail/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/fmg-purcha... details one deal in the news here recently, and there were also recently other stories about a sale to the US.