4 ms·

There seems to be lots of conflicting info out there on "good" fats. I think everyone agrees that monounsaturated fats are relatively good (e.g. olive oil), but

There seems to be lots of conflicting info out there on "good" fats. I think everyone agrees that monounsaturated fats are relatively good (e.g. olive oil), but there are two camps for saturated vs polyunsaturated. Each thinks the other fat is the root of many health problems. I suspect that different industries are behind the apparent dichotomy rather than science.

tpush 5y ago
No, the science is very very clear on that questions: it's absolutely in favor of poly-unsaturated fats. There is however a pocket of quacks and grifters on the internet concocting conspiracy theories about nutritional organizations/guidelines to sell books and whatnot.
- voldacar 5y ago
  So as americans have been eating more and more Omega-6 & PUFAs over the last century or so, they've been getting healthier and healthier, right? Maybe you can share some more predictions of your model.
  - tpush 5y ago
    No, that obviously doesn't follow. Current scientific thinking is that ultra-processed, ultra-palatable food high in both sugar and fat is likely responsible for the obesity epidemic. Of course, the fat in those foods is, most of the time, vegetable oils (because they're cheap & most of them are healthier than their animal counterparts). However, it absolutely doesn't follow that vegetable oil in particular is the driver here. If one switched all of the vegetable oil in ultra-processed, ultra-palatable food with animal fats the result will very likely be exactly the same, except for an increase in CVD due to the increased saturated fat content.
- colordrops 5y ago
  Sounds like you are in one of the camps. If you are going to call out "the science" and speak disparagingly, you'd better provide references. Preferably comprehensive analysis, and not a few cherry picked studies. Otherwise you are just adding to the noise.
  - tpush 5y ago
    You are free to peruse the reports by pretty much every national nutrition & dietetics organization in the world; they already did the hard work of combing through and evaluating all relevant studies in that area. Any individual "assessment" of the scientific literature by someone who doesn't have scientific training in general or in that particular area is much more likely to result misleading or even dangerous conclusions.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      Are you saying you have scientific training in the area? Because you made a clear assessment.
      - tpush 5y ago
        No, I repeated the position of organizations like the AHA, not read a couple studies and made up my own mind.
        colordrops 5y ago
        OK, presumably you'd also need scientific training to discount papers and theories as well. How are you coming to the conclusion about the quackery of other theories?
- hollerith 5y ago
  You mean quacks and grifters like Dale Bredesen, MD, researcher in Alzheimer's, who recommends everyone omit oils except olive, avocado and coconut oil entirely from their diets because they promote chronic inflammation? (Bredesen probably does not maintain that coconut oil is good for you, just that it doesn't have the problem of contributing to chronic inflammation.)
  - tpush 5y ago
    Yes, exactly like that [0]: "In her editorial in the Lancet Neurology, published in May 2020, Joanna Hellmuth, MD, of the UCSF Memory and Aging Center, said the “Bredesen protocol” – named by neurologist Dale Bredesen, MD – has reeled in patients and their families seeking hope outside of the physician’s office for a disease that is currently incurable. The Bredesen protocol is propounded in his 2017 bestseller and can be accessed for $1,399, which includes protocol assessments, lab tests and contact with practitioners, who provide the regimen for additional fees. Online support and cognitive games are available for an additional monthly charge. A follow-up book will come out in August, aimed at anyone concerned about their memory. The three papers, which were published in 2014, 2016 and 2018, and are cited as evidence that the Bredesen protocol is effective, have major flaws, said Hellmuth, who is also affiliated with the Weill Institute for Neurosciences." [0] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/05/417431/pricey-protocol-not-proven-prevent-or-reverse-alzheimers-says-ucsf-neurologist https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/05/417431/pricey-protocol-not...
    - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
      Also, being affiliated with the Institute for Functional Medicine is kind of a red flag [1]. [1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functional-medicine-the-ultimate-misnomer-in-the-world-of-integrative-medicine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functional-medicine-the-ult...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rileyphone 5y ago
More likely than something nefarious, I think it's more likely that both kinds of fat have differing adverse health effects. Saturated fats, as this paper suggests, increase LDL, which is bad for heart health. Polyunsaturated fats, especially when used as cooking oils, introduce free radicals that may cause a host of modern health issues, such as Alzheimer's, type 2 diabetes, and general aging [0][1][2]. The nature of agriculture has changed so much in the past 100 years that it's clear we don't know most of the consequences. Studies like this one correlate saturated fat to adverse health effects, but as far as I can tell they don't control for the quality of saturated fat used, lumping them all into the same statistical category. However, there is a substantive difference on health effects, including cholesterol levels, from grass-fed vs grain-fed meat [3], as well as other animal products like eggs and butter. Even worse is the inclusion of plant derived saturated fats like palm oil, which besides raising LDL [4], is a third-world environmental disaster. That being said, my recommendation is to avoid fried things as much as possible, especially when you don't know what it was fried in and how long that oil stayed hot. Buy grass-fed beef, milk, butter, etc at the store. Replace vegetable oil with olive oil and avocado oil. I could be wrong about this, but it aligns with the heuristic of eating as our ancestors did before the rise of industrial agriculture, and it tastes better. [0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Vegetable-Oil%3A-The-Real-Culprit-behind-Alzheimer%E2%80%99s-Yamashima/5c01a2d0ff93008de7e3f28e5b610d1752ffbac7 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Vegetable-Oil%3A-The-R... [1] https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/11/6/1489/5867525?login=true https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/11/6/1489/5867525?... [2] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/10715762.2010.498478 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/10715762.2010.4... [3] https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-9-10?fbclid=IwAR01MjgGcX_tdkgN1gexqJzFQD4WxJ8LST8UDvq_Th4PxDQ164FdhtBwOh4 https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2... [4] https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/7/1549/4616780?login=true https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/7/1549/4616780?login...
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago
  >increase LDL, which is bad for heart health This is a gross over simplification Many people have high Ldl and no cardiovascular disease. Some have low ldl and have cardiovascular disease. The reality is there's multiple forms of Ldl. If you eat a diet high in sugar and fats, your triglycerides will be high and your Ldl will be high. But it'll be a form of Ldl where the particle size is small and much more likely to clog your arteries. If you eat low to moderate carbs (20-150 net carbs a day) your triglycerides will be low, HDL will be higher and IF your Ldl is high it's likely the ldld particle size is much larger and poses far less of a danger.
loudtieblahblah 5y ago
the pro-PUFA crowd are largely vegetarians and processed food industry trying to convince you that Criso is healthy. the fact that saturated fats, which are mainly animal fats, arent that bad is inconvienent to their cult and profits, respectively.
- colordrops 5y ago
  The opposite could be said as well, no? There are vested interest, both corporate and consumer, on both sides.
  - loudtieblahblah 5y ago
    Yes but one side says Cheese-its and Pringles are OK and the other side is saying eggs are. Make your choice. What will it be? The side convincing you Crisco is healthy? Or the side thst says a steak isn't that bad in moderation? This other side aren't just grifters, they're dangerous. 50+ years of their shit science has made our society fatter and increasingly unhealthy and their solution is more of the same.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      Both factory processed PUFAs and animal products are unhealthy in my estimation.

tpush 5y ago

No, the science is very very clear on that questions: it's absolutely in favor of poly-unsaturated fats. There is however a pocket of quacks and grifters on the internet concocting conspiracy theories about nutritional organizations/guidelines to sell books and whatnot.

voldacar 5y ago
So as americans have been eating more and more Omega-6 & PUFAs over the last century or so, they've been getting healthier and healthier, right? Maybe you can share some more predictions of your model.
- tpush 5y ago
  No, that obviously doesn't follow. Current scientific thinking is that ultra-processed, ultra-palatable food high in both sugar and fat is likely responsible for the obesity epidemic. Of course, the fat in those foods is, most of the time, vegetable oils (because they're cheap & most of them are healthier than their animal counterparts). However, it absolutely doesn't follow that vegetable oil in particular is the driver here. If one switched all of the vegetable oil in ultra-processed, ultra-palatable food with animal fats the result will very likely be exactly the same, except for an increase in CVD due to the increased saturated fat content.
colordrops 5y ago
Sounds like you are in one of the camps. If you are going to call out "the science" and speak disparagingly, you'd better provide references. Preferably comprehensive analysis, and not a few cherry picked studies. Otherwise you are just adding to the noise.
- tpush 5y ago
  You are free to peruse the reports by pretty much every national nutrition & dietetics organization in the world; they already did the hard work of combing through and evaluating all relevant studies in that area. Any individual "assessment" of the scientific literature by someone who doesn't have scientific training in general or in that particular area is much more likely to result misleading or even dangerous conclusions.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Are you saying you have scientific training in the area? Because you made a clear assessment.
    - tpush 5y ago
      No, I repeated the position of organizations like the AHA, not read a couple studies and made up my own mind.
      - colordrops 5y ago
        OK, presumably you'd also need scientific training to discount papers and theories as well. How are you coming to the conclusion about the quackery of other theories?
hollerith 5y ago
You mean quacks and grifters like Dale Bredesen, MD, researcher in Alzheimer's, who recommends everyone omit oils except olive, avocado and coconut oil entirely from their diets because they promote chronic inflammation? (Bredesen probably does not maintain that coconut oil is good for you, just that it doesn't have the problem of contributing to chronic inflammation.)
- tpush 5y ago
  Yes, exactly like that [0]: "In her editorial in the Lancet Neurology, published in May 2020, Joanna Hellmuth, MD, of the UCSF Memory and Aging Center, said the “Bredesen protocol” – named by neurologist Dale Bredesen, MD – has reeled in patients and their families seeking hope outside of the physician’s office for a disease that is currently incurable. The Bredesen protocol is propounded in his 2017 bestseller and can be accessed for $1,399, which includes protocol assessments, lab tests and contact with practitioners, who provide the regimen for additional fees. Online support and cognitive games are available for an additional monthly charge. A follow-up book will come out in August, aimed at anyone concerned about their memory. The three papers, which were published in 2014, 2016 and 2018, and are cited as evidence that the Bredesen protocol is effective, have major flaws, said Hellmuth, who is also affiliated with the Weill Institute for Neurosciences." [0] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/05/417431/pricey-protocol-not-proven-prevent-or-reverse-alzheimers-says-ucsf-neurologist https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/05/417431/pricey-protocol-not...
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    Also, being affiliated with the Institute for Functional Medicine is kind of a red flag [1]. [1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functional-medicine-the-ultimate-misnomer-in-the-world-of-integrative-medicine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functional-medicine-the-ult...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

rileyphone 5y ago

More likely than something nefarious, I think it's more likely that both kinds of fat have differing adverse health effects. Saturated fats, as this paper suggests, increase LDL, which is bad for heart health. Polyunsaturated fats, especially when used as cooking oils, introduce free radicals that may cause a host of modern health issues, such as Alzheimer's, type 2 diabetes, and general aging [0][1][2]. The nature of agriculture has changed so much in the past 100 years that it's clear we don't know most of the consequences. Studies like this one correlate saturated fat to adverse health effects, but as far as I can tell they don't control for the quality of saturated fat used, lumping them all into the same statistical category. However, there is a substantive difference on health effects, including cholesterol levels, from grass-fed vs grain-fed meat [3], as well as other animal products like eggs and butter. Even worse is the inclusion of plant derived saturated fats like palm oil, which besides raising LDL [4], is a third-world environmental disaster. That being said, my recommendation is to avoid fried things as much as possible, especially when you don't know what it was fried in and how long that oil stayed hot. Buy grass-fed beef, milk, butter, etc at the store. Replace vegetable oil with olive oil and avocado oil. I could be wrong about this, but it aligns with the heuristic of eating as our ancestors did before the rise of industrial agriculture, and it tastes better. [0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Vegetable-Oil%3A-The-Real-Culprit-behind-Alzheimer%E2%80%99s-Yamashima/5c01a2d0ff93008de7e3f28e5b610d1752ffbac7 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Vegetable-Oil%3A-The-R... [1] https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/11/6/1489/5867525?login=true https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/11/6/1489/5867525?... [2] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/10715762.2010.498478 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/10715762.2010.4... [3] https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-9-10?fbclid=IwAR01MjgGcX_tdkgN1gexqJzFQD4WxJ8LST8UDvq_Th4PxDQ164FdhtBwOh4 https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2... [4] https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/7/1549/4616780?login=true https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/7/1549/4616780?login...

loudtieblahblah 5y ago
>increase LDL, which is bad for heart health This is a gross over simplification Many people have high Ldl and no cardiovascular disease. Some have low ldl and have cardiovascular disease. The reality is there's multiple forms of Ldl. If you eat a diet high in sugar and fats, your triglycerides will be high and your Ldl will be high. But it'll be a form of Ldl where the particle size is small and much more likely to clog your arteries. If you eat low to moderate carbs (20-150 net carbs a day) your triglycerides will be low, HDL will be higher and IF your Ldl is high it's likely the ldld particle size is much larger and poses far less of a danger.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago

the pro-PUFA crowd are largely vegetarians and processed food industry trying to convince you that Criso is healthy. the fact that saturated fats, which are mainly animal fats, arent that bad is inconvienent to their cult and profits, respectively.

colordrops 5y ago
The opposite could be said as well, no? There are vested interest, both corporate and consumer, on both sides.
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago
  Yes but one side says Cheese-its and Pringles are OK and the other side is saying eggs are. Make your choice. What will it be? The side convincing you Crisco is healthy? Or the side thst says a steak isn't that bad in moderation? This other side aren't just grifters, they're dangerous. 50+ years of their shit science has made our society fatter and increasingly unhealthy and their solution is more of the same.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Both factory processed PUFAs and animal products are unhealthy in my estimation.