3 ms·

> Despite the sanitized name, "economic sanctions" are violence and collective punishment. Ok genius, what should have the west done? Intervene in Ukraine and

> Despite the sanitized name, "economic sanctions" are violence and collective punishment. Ok genius, what should have the west done? Intervene in Ukraine and risk nuclear annihilation for humanity? Or simply look away and let Ukraine be plundered? PS: These are not “sanctions” but “special economic operations”

jmyeet 5y ago
> Ok genius, what should have the west done? 1. Not dangled NATO membership to keep Ukraine aligned with the West, something we were never going to extend for exactly the reasons as evidenced by Putin's invasion. Further, the US should've formally and explicitly announced this intent; 2. Pressure Ukraine to abide by the Minsk Agreement [1], which it never did (to be fair, Russia didn't abide either). Most notably, point (3) called to semi-autonomy for Donetsk and Luhansk; 3. Push for the reinstatement of minority language rights in Ukraine, which were repealed in the wake of the 2014 revolution [2]; 4. Push Ukraine to adopt a policy (perhaps going so far as adopting a constitutional amendment) of official neutrality; and 5. Reorganize the Army to be a defensive army. This is an army built for insurgency to make the cost of occupation so high as to dissuade any foreign invader from ever invading. But despite years of intentional and possibly unintentional provocation of Moscow and a build up to th einvasion the US ruled options like excluding Ukraine from NATO as off-the-table. This was warned about prior to the invasion [3]. That's what should've happened. Now that Putin has started an unjustifiable war he cannot win (IMHO), it gets more difficult because so many people have a kneejerk reaction to "not negotiate with terrorists" (even though we do that routinely) or we don't want to "reward" Putin, the solution hasn't actually changed that much. This will be solved diplomatically eventually because it won't be solved militarily. Even if Putin rejects such a framework and really is seeking to recreate Imperial Russia (which I personally don't believe), what have we lost by trying? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine [3]: https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/west-sleepwalking-war-ukraine https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/west-sleepwalking-w...
- timeon 5y ago
  Finally people in CEE are starting to talk [1] against this colonial mindset like yours. [1]: https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/voinata-v-ukraina/2022/03/06/4320343_problemut_na_amerikanskoto_govorene_za_iztochna_evropa/?_x_tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/v...
- TwoNineA 5y ago
  Russia didn't even held their end of the bargain for the Budapest Memorandum when they annexed Crimea. They really have nothing to complain about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

jmyeet 5y ago

> Ok genius, what should have the west done? 1. Not dangled NATO membership to keep Ukraine aligned with the West, something we were never going to extend for exactly the reasons as evidenced by Putin's invasion. Further, the US should've formally and explicitly announced this intent; 2. Pressure Ukraine to abide by the Minsk Agreement [1], which it never did (to be fair, Russia didn't abide either). Most notably, point (3) called to semi-autonomy for Donetsk and Luhansk; 3. Push for the reinstatement of minority language rights in Ukraine, which were repealed in the wake of the 2014 revolution [2]; 4. Push Ukraine to adopt a policy (perhaps going so far as adopting a constitutional amendment) of official neutrality; and 5. Reorganize the Army to be a defensive army. This is an army built for insurgency to make the cost of occupation so high as to dissuade any foreign invader from ever invading. But despite years of intentional and possibly unintentional provocation of Moscow and a build up to th einvasion the US ruled options like excluding Ukraine from NATO as off-the-table. This was warned about prior to the invasion [3]. That's what should've happened. Now that Putin has started an unjustifiable war he cannot win (IMHO), it gets more difficult because so many people have a kneejerk reaction to "not negotiate with terrorists" (even though we do that routinely) or we don't want to "reward" Putin, the solution hasn't actually changed that much. This will be solved diplomatically eventually because it won't be solved militarily. Even if Putin rejects such a framework and really is seeking to recreate Imperial Russia (which I personally don't believe), what have we lost by trying? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine [3]: https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/west-sleepwalking-war-ukraine https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/west-sleepwalking-w...

timeon 5y ago
Finally people in CEE are starting to talk [1] against this colonial mindset like yours. [1]: https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/voinata-v-ukraina/2022/03/06/4320343_problemut_na_amerikanskoto_govorene_za_iztochna_evropa/?_x_tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/v...
TwoNineA 5y ago
Russia didn't even held their end of the bargain for the Budapest Memorandum when they annexed Crimea. They really have nothing to complain about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...