3 ms·

> instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) I don’t think more subsidized communication and psychology grads wo

> instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) I don’t think more subsidized communication and psychology grads would make the US a better place.

nebula8804 5y ago
But a clear path to better oneself is the dream of a modern society. No one is promising equality of outcome. But we should work towards equality of opportunity. With this system in place, a person can look at the market, put in the effort and better their situation in life with the greatest chance for success. If you treat it as an investment in your citizens that on the average will bring a return on the investment(in the form of a better educated workforce able to contribute to the country's bottom line) then you can have a scenario where some major in underwater basket weaving while others take a chance on STEM degrees. On average, the country is better off. In the end, the opportunity was there for all.
- google234123 5y ago
  This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone. And both offer many types of flexible classes. Someone can easily do a 4 year degree with minimal debt. If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    >This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free So we have Biden to thank for moving the needle a tiny bit further (lets ignore all the lost time and opportunity by not even having these basic options until 2021) but things still fall massively short. I'll just take NJ as an example since it is a more liberal state and is generous with its welfare. In 2021 Gov Murphy signed a law that gives students in a household earning 65k a year or less free community college. Off the bat: It excludes people who did not complete high school. There is no guaranteed avenue for them to complete the GED tuition free, some can get Pell grants, others can get other various grants but this goes back to the point I was making that the opportunity is not there for everyone. I guess they are just losers and should be thrown on the side of the road right? For background, I used to work with community college teachers and so I have some background on how the entry level classes are run. They have basic math(pre-algebra), basic English and basic history classes that are requirements for all degrees and are typically remedial classes that require 2 or more subsequent classes afterwards to satisfy what is typically the first math/english class for STEM degrees. (The sequence is typically Basic Math -> Pre-Algebra > Algebra2 -> Pre-Calc -> Calc and only STEM take the later classes). The college purposely runs dozens of sections all through the day for these classes to help give the utmost flexibility to students who are trying to get back onto the right track. Every semester without fail 80%+ of the students either drop out, fail, or otherwise do not complete the courses. You have no freakin idea how difficult it is for someone who has fallen by the wayside and is struggling to survive to then have to learn these subjects from scratch on top of their existing obligations. The amount of privilege you have to just casually brush aside how serious the problem is proof positive that we as a country are screwed long term. Its going to end up like Brazil, a large underclass with a small lucky elite. Lets continue with Gov Murphy's bill. Requires you to take 6 credits at a time, potentially further excluding people who may have to work multiple jobs or have other obligations just to survive. I guess they should just keep working and maybe something will change in their lot down the road so they can take the 6 credits. If you do not maintain satisfactory academic progress, you are booted out for good. So you have to remain in good standing and not have any screwups (ie. things like losing your job on top of struggling in difficult classes). I know many people that ended up on probation in their first semester and they were lucky enough to afford to remain in college and eventually complete their degrees(many of them are software developers now). Poor people? Well screw them. Unless they are perfect they don't deserve success. NJ has the concept of dual enrollment where if you are super bright and motivated you can enroll in CC classes while in high school and earn credits. Those students are not eligible for this grant. So anyone who is poor but motivated will have yet another hurdle. Maybe they can find other avenues to pay but the point is that this system is not as straightforward as you are so casually describing. The following fees are not covered: • Books (purchased or rental) • Equipment/Supplies/Uniforms (purchase or rental) • Insurance/Health Fees • Application Fees • Library Fees • Late Fees or Fines • Testing/Portfolio/Audit Fees • Licensing/Certification Fees • Criminal Background Check Fees • Parking Fees • Gym/Fitness Fees • Aviation/Flight Time Fees • Change Fees • Graduation/Diploma Fees • Transcript Fees • International Fees • Out-of-state or Out-of-county Fees • Curriculum Review Fees • Payment Plan Fees So like I said, finally some progress after so many years of struggle by activists to get something but not quite there yet. >which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone You are clueless as to what real Americans have to deal with on a day to day basis and here you are thinking that those state schools admit just anyone. We should give as many tools as possible to help people be successful but they still have to put in the work. With all of the issues I described above, these odds of success get worse the more you have on your shoulders. Maybe if you don't have to worry about income yeah you can get into a third tier state school with little effort(Rutgers requires a B/B+ avg for STEM so maybe something like NJCU or Montclair state or worse) but you don't seem to have an internal understanding at how much harder it is for people with all these other burdens. >If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted. Of course there will be some people who go and earn multiple degrees. This happens in Europe. Do you really think this abuse is worse than the waste in the military, all the pork that is in every freaking bill, and the corruption in just about every industry? This is an INVESTMENT in the people of the country. Whichever way you look at it, it is a net benefit for the citizens to get more educated, even if it is in underwater basket weaving. You casually dismiss the fact that people still have to spend 4 years earning the damn degree so its not even like typical entitlement programs where supposedly free money is just handed out. There is still a massive opportunity cost for the person wanting to get the college degree.
    - google234123 5y ago
      I won’t write as much as you, but anyway, CCs were cheap before Biden - not sure how much it’s changed with him. I spent a year at a CC so I know what it’s like and you are doing a lot of exaggerating. E.g. listings a bunch of bogus fees that would never all apply to a single person and are typically small. And it’s not hard to get exemptions for hardship or retake classes… you don’t get booted out forever. Also, complaining about a 6 credit hour minimum, really? It sounds like you want adult daycare where everyone gets an A and can then continue on to Berkeley. If you actually spent time around a CC then you would know that there are lot of unserious people that come through and refuse to put in the minimal effort and fail for that reason. What usually happens if that they grow up (e.g. get a job and get married) and come back later and do much better.
      - nebula8804 5y ago
        > but anyway, CCs were cheap before Biden - not sure how much it’s changed with him. Cheap is relative depending on your income level. Prices have also been going up year after year so when you went to school may not reflect current prices. Seeing as you seem to have a mentality that is not considering of facts on the ground, it appears like you went to school quite a while ago. >I spent a year at a CC so I know what it’s like So did I, In fact I worked with CC professors and administrators. I mentioned that in the reply you clearly didn't read. >and you are doing a lot of exaggerating. E.g. listings a bunch of bogus fees that would never all apply to a single person and are typically small. Of course not every fee applies to every student but the point was that all these fees are a further hinderance to paying for that tuition. Furthermore, if the fees are supposedly so cheap, why aren't they covered? Surely if you think it isn't an issue then just extend the full coverage to all students no? > And it’s not hard to get exemptions for hardship or retake classes… you don’t get booted out forever. I'm not sure if you just misread my statement or just don't care but I am referring to NJ's specific program. Of course you don't get booted out of CC, it is open enrollment! But this rule is just another way to filter out even more people, like I said, screw up your one chance and you are finished, on to the street with you. >Also, complaining about a 6 credit hour minimum, really? Yes because about 13M people hold two or more jobs. [1]: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/about-thirteen-million-united-states-workers-have-more-than-one-job.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/about-thirtee... Sure it won't harm every applicant but yet again for the nth time, the point is that it is another hurdle preventing people from escaping their current conditions. Again if this is such a non-issue to you then surely you'd agree the rule is dumb and should be removed no? >It sounds like you want adult daycare where everyone gets an A and can then continue on to Berkeley. I don't know where these smug idiots crawled out of after Trump got elected but I remember a time on HN when your kind of personality wasn't constantly roaming around and acting in bad faith. >If you actually spent time around a CC then you would know that there are lot of unserious people that come through and refuse to put in the minimal effort and fail for that reason. What usually happens if that they grow up (e.g. get a job and get married) and come back later and do much better. Completely disagree: The majority of the people who were failing out of those remedial courses were middle age or older. Yes there are young people fresh out of HS flunking out but they are a smaller percentage of people and typically do not take those remedial courses. Those courses start at more of a high school level. Thats how bad it is although it seems like you live in a different universe so I wouldn't expect you to realize it anyway.

> instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) I don’t think more subsidized communication and psychology grads would make the US a better place.

nebula8804 5y ago

But a clear path to better oneself is the dream of a modern society. No one is promising equality of outcome. But we should work towards equality of opportunity. With this system in place, a person can look at the market, put in the effort and better their situation in life with the greatest chance for success. If you treat it as an investment in your citizens that on the average will bring a return on the investment(in the form of a better educated workforce able to contribute to the country's bottom line) then you can have a scenario where some major in underwater basket weaving while others take a chance on STEM degrees. On average, the country is better off. In the end, the opportunity was there for all.

google234123 5y ago
This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone. And both offer many types of flexible classes. Someone can easily do a 4 year degree with minimal debt. If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  >This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free So we have Biden to thank for moving the needle a tiny bit further (lets ignore all the lost time and opportunity by not even having these basic options until 2021) but things still fall massively short. I'll just take NJ as an example since it is a more liberal state and is generous with its welfare. In 2021 Gov Murphy signed a law that gives students in a household earning 65k a year or less free community college. Off the bat: It excludes people who did not complete high school. There is no guaranteed avenue for them to complete the GED tuition free, some can get Pell grants, others can get other various grants but this goes back to the point I was making that the opportunity is not there for everyone. I guess they are just losers and should be thrown on the side of the road right? For background, I used to work with community college teachers and so I have some background on how the entry level classes are run. They have basic math(pre-algebra), basic English and basic history classes that are requirements for all degrees and are typically remedial classes that require 2 or more subsequent classes afterwards to satisfy what is typically the first math/english class for STEM degrees. (The sequence is typically Basic Math -> Pre-Algebra > Algebra2 -> Pre-Calc -> Calc and only STEM take the later classes). The college purposely runs dozens of sections all through the day for these classes to help give the utmost flexibility to students who are trying to get back onto the right track. Every semester without fail 80%+ of the students either drop out, fail, or otherwise do not complete the courses. You have no freakin idea how difficult it is for someone who has fallen by the wayside and is struggling to survive to then have to learn these subjects from scratch on top of their existing obligations. The amount of privilege you have to just casually brush aside how serious the problem is proof positive that we as a country are screwed long term. Its going to end up like Brazil, a large underclass with a small lucky elite. Lets continue with Gov Murphy's bill. Requires you to take 6 credits at a time, potentially further excluding people who may have to work multiple jobs or have other obligations just to survive. I guess they should just keep working and maybe something will change in their lot down the road so they can take the 6 credits. If you do not maintain satisfactory academic progress, you are booted out for good. So you have to remain in good standing and not have any screwups (ie. things like losing your job on top of struggling in difficult classes). I know many people that ended up on probation in their first semester and they were lucky enough to afford to remain in college and eventually complete their degrees(many of them are software developers now). Poor people? Well screw them. Unless they are perfect they don't deserve success. NJ has the concept of dual enrollment where if you are super bright and motivated you can enroll in CC classes while in high school and earn credits. Those students are not eligible for this grant. So anyone who is poor but motivated will have yet another hurdle. Maybe they can find other avenues to pay but the point is that this system is not as straightforward as you are so casually describing. The following fees are not covered: • Books (purchased or rental) • Equipment/Supplies/Uniforms (purchase or rental) • Insurance/Health Fees • Application Fees • Library Fees • Late Fees or Fines • Testing/Portfolio/Audit Fees • Licensing/Certification Fees • Criminal Background Check Fees • Parking Fees • Gym/Fitness Fees • Aviation/Flight Time Fees • Change Fees • Graduation/Diploma Fees • Transcript Fees • International Fees • Out-of-state or Out-of-county Fees • Curriculum Review Fees • Payment Plan Fees So like I said, finally some progress after so many years of struggle by activists to get something but not quite there yet. >which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone You are clueless as to what real Americans have to deal with on a day to day basis and here you are thinking that those state schools admit just anyone. We should give as many tools as possible to help people be successful but they still have to put in the work. With all of the issues I described above, these odds of success get worse the more you have on your shoulders. Maybe if you don't have to worry about income yeah you can get into a third tier state school with little effort(Rutgers requires a B/B+ avg for STEM so maybe something like NJCU or Montclair state or worse) but you don't seem to have an internal understanding at how much harder it is for people with all these other burdens. >If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted. Of course there will be some people who go and earn multiple degrees. This happens in Europe. Do you really think this abuse is worse than the waste in the military, all the pork that is in every freaking bill, and the corruption in just about every industry? This is an INVESTMENT in the people of the country. Whichever way you look at it, it is a net benefit for the citizens to get more educated, even if it is in underwater basket weaving. You casually dismiss the fact that people still have to spend 4 years earning the damn degree so its not even like typical entitlement programs where supposedly free money is just handed out. There is still a massive opportunity cost for the person wanting to get the college degree.
  - google234123 5y ago
    I won’t write as much as you, but anyway, CCs were cheap before Biden - not sure how much it’s changed with him. I spent a year at a CC so I know what it’s like and you are doing a lot of exaggerating. E.g. listings a bunch of bogus fees that would never all apply to a single person and are typically small. And it’s not hard to get exemptions for hardship or retake classes… you don’t get booted out forever. Also, complaining about a 6 credit hour minimum, really? It sounds like you want adult daycare where everyone gets an A and can then continue on to Berkeley. If you actually spent time around a CC then you would know that there are lot of unserious people that come through and refuse to put in the minimal effort and fail for that reason. What usually happens if that they grow up (e.g. get a job and get married) and come back later and do much better.
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      > but anyway, CCs were cheap before Biden - not sure how much it’s changed with him. Cheap is relative depending on your income level. Prices have also been going up year after year so when you went to school may not reflect current prices. Seeing as you seem to have a mentality that is not considering of facts on the ground, it appears like you went to school quite a while ago. >I spent a year at a CC so I know what it’s like So did I, In fact I worked with CC professors and administrators. I mentioned that in the reply you clearly didn't read. >and you are doing a lot of exaggerating. E.g. listings a bunch of bogus fees that would never all apply to a single person and are typically small. Of course not every fee applies to every student but the point was that all these fees are a further hinderance to paying for that tuition. Furthermore, if the fees are supposedly so cheap, why aren't they covered? Surely if you think it isn't an issue then just extend the full coverage to all students no? > And it’s not hard to get exemptions for hardship or retake classes… you don’t get booted out forever. I'm not sure if you just misread my statement or just don't care but I am referring to NJ's specific program. Of course you don't get booted out of CC, it is open enrollment! But this rule is just another way to filter out even more people, like I said, screw up your one chance and you are finished, on to the street with you. >Also, complaining about a 6 credit hour minimum, really? Yes because about 13M people hold two or more jobs. [1]: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/about-thirteen-million-united-states-workers-have-more-than-one-job.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/about-thirtee... Sure it won't harm every applicant but yet again for the nth time, the point is that it is another hurdle preventing people from escaping their current conditions. Again if this is such a non-issue to you then surely you'd agree the rule is dumb and should be removed no? >It sounds like you want adult daycare where everyone gets an A and can then continue on to Berkeley. I don't know where these smug idiots crawled out of after Trump got elected but I remember a time on HN when your kind of personality wasn't constantly roaming around and acting in bad faith. >If you actually spent time around a CC then you would know that there are lot of unserious people that come through and refuse to put in the minimal effort and fail for that reason. What usually happens if that they grow up (e.g. get a job and get married) and come back later and do much better. Completely disagree: The majority of the people who were failing out of those remedial courses were middle age or older. Yes there are young people fresh out of HS flunking out but they are a smaller percentage of people and typically do not take those remedial courses. Those courses start at more of a high school level. Thats how bad it is although it seems like you live in a different universe so I wouldn't expect you to realize it anyway.