By humans I just mean a group of fallible people, some of whom are probably trying to do a good job. I do not think government authority is infallible -- clear

By humans I just mean a group of fallible people, some of whom are probably trying to do a good job. I do not think government authority is infallible -- clearly that is not so. And in any large group, especially government, there are those attracted to power, a low-accountability steady pay, etc. My own experiences also bear this out (I wrote about that on my website -- medicare for all sounds disastrous). But the vaccines and masks do seem quite relevant and worth using. I am not qualified to debate if the CDC has been a reliable source of info in everything (I would assume not). I don't think the vaccine effectiveness has disappeared, but may be slightly reduced over time. From all I read, those dying in hospitals now (edit: from covid-19) are almost exclusively not fully vaccinated. Again, local hospitals and sources. Sounds sad about those doctors, regardless of who is right. We should all try to practice honesty and the Golden Rule. That matters very much. Even if there were 200,000 cases of polio from the vacc (I think I remember reading something like that; I don't recall the #s), that sounds like human error (also sad), which must be corrected as far as possible, and it has still done vastly more good than harm, overall, through the history, as have MMR vaccs etc. I'll be honest -- I read a lot, from traceable sources (not facebook etc), and that influences me, and I say all the above based on that. But my biggest influences are the 15 (12, plus 3 in what we call the First Presidency) apostles of our worldwide Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (around 17 million members in most countries, most members now outside the USA, does a surprisingly large amount of humanitarian work worldwide with many partners, very family-oriented, and the best influence in my life--it's too much work, if it weren't true; more at my site on how I determined things for myself). So much to say there, it wouldn't fit in an HN thread but I have put it at my web site (in profile). The current president (prophet), Russell M. Nelson, had a pioneering career in open heart surgery before he was called (asked) to be a Church leader, initially a junior member of the 12, which is a lifelong assignment (he is now 95 or so). But neither he nor the others are worshipped, considered infallible, etc. But I have determined for myself, not by blind faith, that it is safe in life to follow their voices when they speak unitedly. In fact, we believe (and I believe) they are directed by God, and generally do their best to study issues before asking for direction. They have endorsed vaccines for decades, as having saved many lives. I would probably be considered an "arch-conservative" by some people's standards, but science, while also not infallible, is a useful tool, even essential for us, and all things should be done with wisdom and humility (that corroboration etc that I mentioned earlier). As far as I can tell, the people I referred to were reporting their own experiences. Definitely true with some of them, and seems highly likely true for the rest. I, with you, disagree with mandates. I knew someone I consider trustworthy, who had a strong feeling not to vaccinate one of her children. Years later, when it was required for school, and done, the child became sick from it, and the mom was told by a medical pro that if the child had been given that vaccine as an infant, she probably would have died. I think we agree that the best, honest info we can get is very important, and that the parents or individuals are the best to make final decisions. But if schools or other institutions want to limit attendance to those that are less likely to harm others by spreading diseases, I can see there is a good discussion to be had there, for each case, and that more local decision-making is usually for the better. Unfortunately, many humans cannot be trusted, based on their behavior over time. It takes ongoing effort to decide what to trust. I believe there is a path for all of us to find peace in this life, even amid the increasing commotion and confusion, and Eternal life in the world to come. Still curious as to your thoughts from my previous comment's last paragraph, but no pressure. (I think we probably agree on many things. And I'm sure I could have said some things better than I did.)