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Spoke to an engineer in Romania on Friday who was glowing with pride at his country's response to the unfolding humanitarian crisis. Just dead proud that his n

Spoke to an engineer in Romania on Friday who was glowing with pride at his country's response to the unfolding humanitarian crisis. Just dead proud that his nation was willing to be so accommodating to the thousands of people streaming across their border. That our, vastly richer, nation is so miserly in this regard should be a source of national shame for a long time to come. Unfortunately, a substantial proportion of the British press will continue to parrot the government's lines about "leading the way" on sanctions and aid, and a British public unaccustomed to introspection will happily eat it up.

hinkley 5y ago
It's easier to reach down the proverbial ladder and pull someone up. If you see yourself in someone else it's hard to look away. Today you, tomorrow, me.
sebow 5y ago
Also a citizen of the mentioned country: while 'pride' might be a strong word for my feeling, I more importantly feel like it's our duty and responsibility to help those in need.After all that is one of our cultural values we strive for as a country and as a continent.Personally I'll feel pride after the threat is gone. Where I differ is that I don't think countries like UK/other should be shamed for taking a different approach at all.It's never charity if it's forced.Yes, the first & second "waves" of people who flee during wartime are upper-middle class citizens, which we've seen here.They are financially secure most of the time, they are not as desperate.If they don't stay here they will go to Germany/other countries where they think it's best for them. The lower-middle & lower class can't do that,flee lastly and those are the people we need to support and help them unconditionally(and are the most grateful).At the same time some in WE & NA don't realize these are people legitimately fleeing conflict and are not migrating for,frankly, welfare benefits.They usually don't want to go in far distant lands because there's no economic motive.I don't want to sound like an ignorant but frankly UK is kind of a big stretch for fleeing as a wartime refugee person, though i'm not one to judge.Not to mention we've repeatedly seen refugee crises being abused for this reason, especially when getting a visa or being allowed through the border does not happen under normal conditions.(Here i would also like to say that Romania isn't in Schengen,still has border checks for both EU&non-EU, and there's nothing "discriminatory" if the border officer determines you're not fleeing conflict and rejects you, especially if there's no special case being stated by the gov. regarding certain criteria like nationality [exception which now exists for Ukrainians -- though more exceptionally this was decided at an EU level])
- matthowe 5y ago
  Yes, maybe "shame" on a national scale is overwrought. Those of us that did not vote for this Conservative government may feel shame (I certainly do) but the UK is a democracy and the government in power reflects, to a large degree, the sentiments of the general public when it comes to migration and charity to refugees. The latter of which is often in short supply. In terms of the practicality of fleeing Ukraine for the UK, I take your point about distance, and wouldn't imagine that we would be a more popular destination that countries in central Europe. At the same time, the fact that only 50 visas had been issued by Britain to refugees from Ukraine (at the last count I saw) is pretty embarrassing if you ask me. We should do more and better, but we get the government (and by extension, the policies and laws) that we deserve.
  - sebow 5y ago
    Agreed.Though I'd say that UK has uniquely(amongst EU at least) been proven as a good supporter and ally with EE through NATO for military purposes.Indeed, if only 50 visas have been given that's a pretty low number, but I'd be curious to know if rejections for visas are because of immigration policies[which I respect,from both a democratic prism and from my personal ideology] or security concerns.
- KolenCh 5y ago
  Please, space after full stop.
jansen555 5y ago
willmw101 5y ago
More nuance needed here. The UK has failed terribly when it comes to opening its borders to Ukrainians. But it has very much been world leading when it comes to other aspects of this crisis. Britain sent arms to Ukraine well before the war started, was training thousands of Ukrainian snipers back in January and February, and was the first country to send arms to Ukraine. Ukrainians on the ground therefore see Britain as their closest ally, regardless of its shameful stance on immigration. https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1500927139570401283?s=20&t=mEEQMelWcqwgCchZposNOg https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1500927139570401283?s=2...
- ashwagary 5y ago
  The British are very aware of the large Neo-Nazi supporting population in Ukraine. Over the years the BBC, SkyNews, Reuters, Guardian, and other British media companies have had extensive coverage and made a few documentaries about the topic. I expect they know precisely what they would be opening up their country and domestic population to in a mass migration scenario.
  - mike_k 5y ago
    > large Neo-Nazi supporting population in Ukraine Do you care to list those sources? It sounds exactly like a successful work of Kremlin propaganda. Please, ask anyone, any foreign citizen who lived in Ukraine, if they ever saw people like that in person and if it was anything but a short "demonstration"/provocation happening once a year.
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      "Ukraine's revolution and the far right" - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720 Banderites (followers of Nazi Stepan Bandera) are all over Ukraine in significant numbers. The current President Zelenskyy constantly talked about them and their growing support over the last decade in his comedic performances and as a politician. Western media is suddenly reluctant to discuss this history (possibly because of state objectives) but the articles and other news media produced from ~2014-2016 on this topic are easy to find.

hinkley 5y ago

It's easier to reach down the proverbial ladder and pull someone up. If you see yourself in someone else it's hard to look away. Today you, tomorrow, me.

sebow 5y ago

Also a citizen of the mentioned country: while 'pride' might be a strong word for my feeling, I more importantly feel like it's our duty and responsibility to help those in need.After all that is one of our cultural values we strive for as a country and as a continent.Personally I'll feel pride after the threat is gone. Where I differ is that I don't think countries like UK/other should be shamed for taking a different approach at all.It's never charity if it's forced.Yes, the first & second "waves" of people who flee during wartime are upper-middle class citizens, which we've seen here.They are financially secure most of the time, they are not as desperate.If they don't stay here they will go to Germany/other countries where they think it's best for them. The lower-middle & lower class can't do that,flee lastly and those are the people we need to support and help them unconditionally(and are the most grateful).At the same time some in WE & NA don't realize these are people legitimately fleeing conflict and are not migrating for,frankly, welfare benefits.They usually don't want to go in far distant lands because there's no economic motive.I don't want to sound like an ignorant but frankly UK is kind of a big stretch for fleeing as a wartime refugee person, though i'm not one to judge.Not to mention we've repeatedly seen refugee crises being abused for this reason, especially when getting a visa or being allowed through the border does not happen under normal conditions.(Here i would also like to say that Romania isn't in Schengen,still has border checks for both EU&non-EU, and there's nothing "discriminatory" if the border officer determines you're not fleeing conflict and rejects you, especially if there's no special case being stated by the gov. regarding certain criteria like nationality [exception which now exists for Ukrainians -- though more exceptionally this was decided at an EU level])

matthowe 5y ago
Yes, maybe "shame" on a national scale is overwrought. Those of us that did not vote for this Conservative government may feel shame (I certainly do) but the UK is a democracy and the government in power reflects, to a large degree, the sentiments of the general public when it comes to migration and charity to refugees. The latter of which is often in short supply. In terms of the practicality of fleeing Ukraine for the UK, I take your point about distance, and wouldn't imagine that we would be a more popular destination that countries in central Europe. At the same time, the fact that only 50 visas had been issued by Britain to refugees from Ukraine (at the last count I saw) is pretty embarrassing if you ask me. We should do more and better, but we get the government (and by extension, the policies and laws) that we deserve.
- sebow 5y ago
  Agreed.Though I'd say that UK has uniquely(amongst EU at least) been proven as a good supporter and ally with EE through NATO for military purposes.Indeed, if only 50 visas have been given that's a pretty low number, but I'd be curious to know if rejections for visas are because of immigration policies[which I respect,from both a democratic prism and from my personal ideology] or security concerns.
KolenCh 5y ago
Please, space after full stop.

jansen555 5y ago

willmw101 5y ago

More nuance needed here. The UK has failed terribly when it comes to opening its borders to Ukrainians. But it has very much been world leading when it comes to other aspects of this crisis. Britain sent arms to Ukraine well before the war started, was training thousands of Ukrainian snipers back in January and February, and was the first country to send arms to Ukraine. Ukrainians on the ground therefore see Britain as their closest ally, regardless of its shameful stance on immigration. https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1500927139570401283?s=20&t=mEEQMelWcqwgCchZposNOg https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1500927139570401283?s=2...

ashwagary 5y ago
The British are very aware of the large Neo-Nazi supporting population in Ukraine. Over the years the BBC, SkyNews, Reuters, Guardian, and other British media companies have had extensive coverage and made a few documentaries about the topic. I expect they know precisely what they would be opening up their country and domestic population to in a mass migration scenario.
- mike_k 5y ago
  > large Neo-Nazi supporting population in Ukraine Do you care to list those sources? It sounds exactly like a successful work of Kremlin propaganda. Please, ask anyone, any foreign citizen who lived in Ukraine, if they ever saw people like that in person and if it was anything but a short "demonstration"/provocation happening once a year.
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    "Ukraine's revolution and the far right" - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720 Banderites (followers of Nazi Stepan Bandera) are all over Ukraine in significant numbers. The current President Zelenskyy constantly talked about them and their growing support over the last decade in his comedic performances and as a politician. Western media is suddenly reluctant to discuss this history (possibly because of state objectives) but the articles and other news media produced from ~2014-2016 on this topic are easy to find.