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The US doesn't want to "shrink our monster". Read the thread! The EU and many small allies like South Korea and Japan have absolutely ROSEY relations with The

by zeku 5y ago

The US doesn't want to "shrink our monster". Read the thread! The EU and many small allies like South Korea and Japan have absolutely ROSEY relations with The US because they need The US. This is a massive strategic advantage that no sane American wants to give up. It's also one of the few things in politics that is a win win. It largely discouraged bad actors from war(despite Ukraine rn we have still lived in relative peace for a long time). EU gets defense, US gets clout to negotiate with everywhere. Best friends.

nebula8804 5y ago
>This is a massive strategic advantage that no sane American wants to give up. I'm sure you are saying this from a point of privilege. If you are upper middle class or higher in the US you are benefiting from this arrangement. Otherwise you are in an endless treadmill of barely surviving with the fear of no safety net and one missed paycheck away from ruin. I'm sure this vast underclass would say that instead of wasting money on this military instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) should be created...you know all the benefits that Europeans have and take for granted(built on the backs of Americans in a way). >It's also one of the few things in politics that is a win win. It largely discouraged bad actors from war(despite Ukraine rn we have still lived in relative peace for a long time). EU gets defense, US gets clout to negotiate with everywhere. Best friends. Yes it has made a lot of despicable people in the US very rich.
- google234123 5y ago
  > instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) I don’t think more subsidized communication and psychology grads would make the US a better place.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    But a clear path to better oneself is the dream of a modern society. No one is promising equality of outcome. But we should work towards equality of opportunity. With this system in place, a person can look at the market, put in the effort and better their situation in life with the greatest chance for success. If you treat it as an investment in your citizens that on the average will bring a return on the investment(in the form of a better educated workforce able to contribute to the country's bottom line) then you can have a scenario where some major in underwater basket weaving while others take a chance on STEM degrees. On average, the country is better off. In the end, the opportunity was there for all.
    - google234123 5y ago
      This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone. And both offer many types of flexible classes. Someone can easily do a 4 year degree with minimal debt. If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted.
      - nebula8804 5y ago
        >This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free So we have Biden to thank for moving the needle a tiny bit further (lets ignore all the lost time and opportunity by not even having these basic options until 2021) but things still fall massively short. I'll just take NJ as an example since it is a more liberal state and is generous with its welfare. In 2021 Gov Murphy signed a law that gives students in a household earning 65k a year or less free community college. Off the bat: It excludes people who did not complete high school. There is no guaranteed avenue for them to complete the GED tuition free, some can get Pell grants, others can get other various grants but this goes back to the point I was making that the opportunity is not there for everyone. I guess they are just losers and should be thrown on the side of the road right? For background, I used to work with community college teachers and so I have some background on how the entry level classes are run. They have basic math(pre-algebra), basic English and basic history classes that are requirements for all degrees and are typically remedial classes that require 2 or more subsequent classes afterwards to satisfy what is typically the first math/english class for STEM degrees. (The sequence is typically Basic Math -> Pre-Algebra > Algebra2 -> Pre-Calc -> Calc and only STEM take the later classes). The college purposely runs dozens of sections all through the day for these classes to help give the utmost flexibility to students who are trying to get back onto the right track. Every semester without fail 80%+ of the students either drop out, fail, or otherwise do not complete the courses. You have no freakin idea how difficult it is for someone who has fallen by the wayside and is struggling to survive to then have to learn these subjects from scratch on top of their existing obligations. The amount of privilege you have to just casually brush aside how serious the problem is proof positive that we as a country are screwed long term. Its going to end up like Brazil, a large underclass with a small lucky elite. Lets continue with Gov Murphy's bill. Requires you to take 6 credits at a time, potentially further excluding people who may have to work multiple jobs or have other obligations just to survive. I guess they should just keep working and maybe something will change in their lot down the road so they can take the 6 credits. If you do not maintain satisfactory academic progress, you are booted out for good. So you have to remain in good standing and not have any screwups (ie. things like losing your job on top of struggling in difficult classes). I know many people that ended up on probation in their first semester and they were lucky enough to afford to remain in college and eventually complete their degrees(many of them are software developers now). Poor people? Well screw them. Unless they are perfect they don't deserve success. NJ has the concept of dual enrollment where if you are super bright and motivated you can enroll in CC classes while in high school and earn credits. Those students are not eligible for this grant. So anyone who is poor but motivated will have yet another hurdle. Maybe they can find other avenues to pay but the point is that this system is not as straightforward as you are so casually describing. The following fees are not covered: • Books (purchased or rental) • Equipment/Supplies/Uniforms (purchase or rental) • Insurance/Health Fees • Application Fees • Library Fees • Late Fees or Fines • Testing/Portfolio/Audit Fees • Licensing/Certification Fees • Criminal Background Check Fees • Parking Fees • Gym/Fitness Fees • Aviation/Flight Time Fees • Change Fees • Graduation/Diploma Fees • Transcript Fees • International Fees • Out-of-state or Out-of-county Fees • Curriculum Review Fees • Payment Plan Fees So like I said, finally some progress after so many years of struggle by activists to get something but not quite there yet. >which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone You are clueless as to what real Americans have to deal with on a day to day basis and here you are thinking that those state schools admit just anyone. We should give as many tools as possible to help people be successful but they still have to put in the work. With all of the issues I described above, these odds of success get worse the more you have on your shoulders. Maybe if you don't have to worry about income yeah you can get into a third tier state school with little effort(Rutgers requires a B/B+ avg for STEM so maybe something like NJCU or Montclair state or worse) but you don't seem to have an internal understanding at how much harder it is for people with all these other burdens. >If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted. Of course there will be some people who go and earn multiple degrees. This happens in Europe. Do you really think this abuse is worse than the waste in the military, all the pork that is in every freaking bill, and the corruption in just about every industry? This is an INVESTMENT in the people of the country. Whichever way you look at it, it is a net benefit for the citizens to get more educated, even if it is in underwater basket weaving. You casually dismiss the fact that people still have to spend 4 years earning the damn degree so its not even like typical entitlement programs where supposedly free money is just handed out. There is still a massive opportunity cost for the person wanting to get the college degree.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  > fear of no safety net Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, MediCal, Unemployment, EBT (food stamps / free food), Welfare, pandemic stimulus checks, etc. US social spends more, by % of GDP, higher than Australia, Canada, Netherlands, Israel, Switzerland, Iceland, Ireland, South Korea, and more. And we have certain differing classically liberal economic policies that have bolstered our GDP considerably, so 18% of $60k is even better than 18% of $40k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we...
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    >Medicare, Medicaid, MediCal Yeah this gets trotted out every time. The requirements and hoops you have to jump through for all the Medi* programs makes it such that unless you are destitute + cross your i and dot your t you will not be entering those programs. I went through this very scenario when I as a developer ended up in a situation without income a few years back. Coverage does not start for many of these programs until you have passed an income year where you are under the threshold. So for that gap you are on your own. Failure to make sure you application perfect is also cause for fines and backpay down the road as my mother experienced (she got a multi thousand dollar bill from our state's Medicaid program two years after the fact just because her application was not perfect and they discovered the issue later on.) Medicare is an exception as it is a simple age based formula but it still has premiums. Furthermore as my Father who passed away 1 month before his Medicare eligible date can attest, many people need the healthcare before they reach 65. It is a complete scam that there isn't adequate coverage before that date and it serves as a funnel to limit the amount of people who make it to that date(but still pay into the program despite not ever benefiting). >Social Security Is not adequate to provide benefits for the vast majority of counties in the US. You must supplement with additional retirement. Again my parents living in a liberal state with higher than average(but no where near highest) cost of living would be screwed. They are lucky that they worked as Engineers/Developers so they could afford to save up money but most are not that lucky. >Unemployment, EBT (food stamps / free food), Welfare Again, suffers from the same needs based testing as the Medi* programs. It is designed such that unless you are a perfect applicant, you are not getting in and the wait list for some of these programs are so long that it is pointless. This situation has resulted in a massive underclass that is barely ineligible for these programs yet are not wealthy enough to lead a basic dignified life. >pandemic stimulus checks You seriously trotting out the one time check? This shows how privileged you really are that you have no clue whatsoever as to how a large chunk of America is really living. >US social spends more, by % of GDP, higher than Australia, Canada, Netherlands, Israel, Switzerland, Iceland, Ireland, South Korea, and more. And we have certain differing classically liberal economic policies that have bolstered our GDP considerably, so 18% of $60k is even better than 18% of $40k. Like everything in this country, all these programs are abused by anyone who can benefit: contractors, bureaucracy, and politicians who can use it to pad re-election hopes. I'd bet money that the majority of the American underclass would GLADLY swap seats with someone in those other countries yet I bet the opposite is not as true.

by zeku 5y ago

nebula8804 5y ago

>This is a massive strategic advantage that no sane American wants to give up. I'm sure you are saying this from a point of privilege. If you are upper middle class or higher in the US you are benefiting from this arrangement. Otherwise you are in an endless treadmill of barely surviving with the fear of no safety net and one missed paycheck away from ruin. I'm sure this vast underclass would say that instead of wasting money on this military instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) should be created...you know all the benefits that Europeans have and take for granted(built on the backs of Americans in a way). >It's also one of the few things in politics that is a win win. It largely discouraged bad actors from war(despite Ukraine rn we have still lived in relative peace for a long time). EU gets defense, US gets clout to negotiate with everywhere. Best friends. Yes it has made a lot of despicable people in the US very rich.

google234123 5y ago
> instead a proper safety net + opportunities for advancement (eg. free college/healthcare) I don’t think more subsidized communication and psychology grads would make the US a better place.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  But a clear path to better oneself is the dream of a modern society. No one is promising equality of outcome. But we should work towards equality of opportunity. With this system in place, a person can look at the market, put in the effort and better their situation in life with the greatest chance for success. If you treat it as an investment in your citizens that on the average will bring a return on the investment(in the form of a better educated workforce able to contribute to the country's bottom line) then you can have a scenario where some major in underwater basket weaving while others take a chance on STEM degrees. On average, the country is better off. In the end, the opportunity was there for all.
  - google234123 5y ago
    This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone. And both offer many types of flexible classes. Someone can easily do a 4 year degree with minimal debt. If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted.
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      >This path already exists. We have community colleges that are almost free So we have Biden to thank for moving the needle a tiny bit further (lets ignore all the lost time and opportunity by not even having these basic options until 2021) but things still fall massively short. I'll just take NJ as an example since it is a more liberal state and is generous with its welfare. In 2021 Gov Murphy signed a law that gives students in a household earning 65k a year or less free community college. Off the bat: It excludes people who did not complete high school. There is no guaranteed avenue for them to complete the GED tuition free, some can get Pell grants, others can get other various grants but this goes back to the point I was making that the opportunity is not there for everyone. I guess they are just losers and should be thrown on the side of the road right? For background, I used to work with community college teachers and so I have some background on how the entry level classes are run. They have basic math(pre-algebra), basic English and basic history classes that are requirements for all degrees and are typically remedial classes that require 2 or more subsequent classes afterwards to satisfy what is typically the first math/english class for STEM degrees. (The sequence is typically Basic Math -> Pre-Algebra > Algebra2 -> Pre-Calc -> Calc and only STEM take the later classes). The college purposely runs dozens of sections all through the day for these classes to help give the utmost flexibility to students who are trying to get back onto the right track. Every semester without fail 80%+ of the students either drop out, fail, or otherwise do not complete the courses. You have no freakin idea how difficult it is for someone who has fallen by the wayside and is struggling to survive to then have to learn these subjects from scratch on top of their existing obligations. The amount of privilege you have to just casually brush aside how serious the problem is proof positive that we as a country are screwed long term. Its going to end up like Brazil, a large underclass with a small lucky elite. Lets continue with Gov Murphy's bill. Requires you to take 6 credits at a time, potentially further excluding people who may have to work multiple jobs or have other obligations just to survive. I guess they should just keep working and maybe something will change in their lot down the road so they can take the 6 credits. If you do not maintain satisfactory academic progress, you are booted out for good. So you have to remain in good standing and not have any screwups (ie. things like losing your job on top of struggling in difficult classes). I know many people that ended up on probation in their first semester and they were lucky enough to afford to remain in college and eventually complete their degrees(many of them are software developers now). Poor people? Well screw them. Unless they are perfect they don't deserve success. NJ has the concept of dual enrollment where if you are super bright and motivated you can enroll in CC classes while in high school and earn credits. Those students are not eligible for this grant. So anyone who is poor but motivated will have yet another hurdle. Maybe they can find other avenues to pay but the point is that this system is not as straightforward as you are so casually describing. The following fees are not covered: • Books (purchased or rental) • Equipment/Supplies/Uniforms (purchase or rental) • Insurance/Health Fees • Application Fees • Library Fees • Late Fees or Fines • Testing/Portfolio/Audit Fees • Licensing/Certification Fees • Criminal Background Check Fees • Parking Fees • Gym/Fitness Fees • Aviation/Flight Time Fees • Change Fees • Graduation/Diploma Fees • Transcript Fees • International Fees • Out-of-state or Out-of-county Fees • Curriculum Review Fees • Payment Plan Fees So like I said, finally some progress after so many years of struggle by activists to get something but not quite there yet. >which can be followed up by state colleges that admit almost anyone You are clueless as to what real Americans have to deal with on a day to day basis and here you are thinking that those state schools admit just anyone. We should give as many tools as possible to help people be successful but they still have to put in the work. With all of the issues I described above, these odds of success get worse the more you have on your shoulders. Maybe if you don't have to worry about income yeah you can get into a third tier state school with little effort(Rutgers requires a B/B+ avg for STEM so maybe something like NJCU or Montclair state or worse) but you don't seem to have an internal understanding at how much harder it is for people with all these other burdens. >If you make things completely free then they will just be abused and wasted. Of course there will be some people who go and earn multiple degrees. This happens in Europe. Do you really think this abuse is worse than the waste in the military, all the pork that is in every freaking bill, and the corruption in just about every industry? This is an INVESTMENT in the people of the country. Whichever way you look at it, it is a net benefit for the citizens to get more educated, even if it is in underwater basket weaving. You casually dismiss the fact that people still have to spend 4 years earning the damn degree so its not even like typical entitlement programs where supposedly free money is just handed out. There is still a massive opportunity cost for the person wanting to get the college degree.
reducesuffering 5y ago
> fear of no safety net Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, MediCal, Unemployment, EBT (food stamps / free food), Welfare, pandemic stimulus checks, etc. US social spends more, by % of GDP, higher than Australia, Canada, Netherlands, Israel, Switzerland, Iceland, Ireland, South Korea, and more. And we have certain differing classically liberal economic policies that have bolstered our GDP considerably, so 18% of $60k is even better than 18% of $40k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we...
- nebula8804 5y ago
  >Medicare, Medicaid, MediCal Yeah this gets trotted out every time. The requirements and hoops you have to jump through for all the Medi* programs makes it such that unless you are destitute + cross your i and dot your t you will not be entering those programs. I went through this very scenario when I as a developer ended up in a situation without income a few years back. Coverage does not start for many of these programs until you have passed an income year where you are under the threshold. So for that gap you are on your own. Failure to make sure you application perfect is also cause for fines and backpay down the road as my mother experienced (she got a multi thousand dollar bill from our state's Medicaid program two years after the fact just because her application was not perfect and they discovered the issue later on.) Medicare is an exception as it is a simple age based formula but it still has premiums. Furthermore as my Father who passed away 1 month before his Medicare eligible date can attest, many people need the healthcare before they reach 65. It is a complete scam that there isn't adequate coverage before that date and it serves as a funnel to limit the amount of people who make it to that date(but still pay into the program despite not ever benefiting). >Social Security Is not adequate to provide benefits for the vast majority of counties in the US. You must supplement with additional retirement. Again my parents living in a liberal state with higher than average(but no where near highest) cost of living would be screwed. They are lucky that they worked as Engineers/Developers so they could afford to save up money but most are not that lucky. >Unemployment, EBT (food stamps / free food), Welfare Again, suffers from the same needs based testing as the Medi* programs. It is designed such that unless you are a perfect applicant, you are not getting in and the wait list for some of these programs are so long that it is pointless. This situation has resulted in a massive underclass that is barely ineligible for these programs yet are not wealthy enough to lead a basic dignified life. >pandemic stimulus checks You seriously trotting out the one time check? This shows how privileged you really are that you have no clue whatsoever as to how a large chunk of America is really living. >US social spends more, by % of GDP, higher than Australia, Canada, Netherlands, Israel, Switzerland, Iceland, Ireland, South Korea, and more. And we have certain differing classically liberal economic policies that have bolstered our GDP considerably, so 18% of $60k is even better than 18% of $40k. Like everything in this country, all these programs are abused by anyone who can benefit: contractors, bureaucracy, and politicians who can use it to pad re-election hopes. I'd bet money that the majority of the American underclass would GLADLY swap seats with someone in those other countries yet I bet the opposite is not as true.