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I voted the other way, but ultimately you have to respect the vote to an extent. If the Leave campaign knew that they were going to deliver something other tha

I voted the other way, but ultimately you have to respect the vote to an extent. If the Leave campaign knew that they were going to deliver something other than what they campaigned for, and it's reasonable to suggest they did, then that's fraud, and the whole thing should be declared void.

dudul 5y ago
Don't election winners always deliver something other than what they campaigned for?
- onion2k 5y ago
  They do, yes. The key thing is that they didn't know what they were campaigning for wasn't possible though, so they often try and fail, or the situation changes to make plans impossible, or they just realised what they wanted to do was actually stupid. All those things are fine. Changing your mind when presented with new data is a good thing. Campaigning while knowing that you plan to do something else is different. The important thing is that you should campaign believing that you will make every effort to implement your plans, else you are defrauding voters. For example, I have no doubt whatsoever that Boris had absolutely no intention of trying to increase NHS funding despite repeated saying he would if people voted leave. That's the difference. He wasn't just wrong or incompetent or unlucky, but instead he was telling people something he knew wouldn't happen.
  - blibble 5y ago
    > For example, I have no doubt whatsoever that Boris had absolutely no intention of trying to increase NHS funding despite repeated saying he would if people voted leave. the government did increase NHS funding by more than the bus number (£350 million/week) see NHS Funding Act 2020: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/pdfs/ukpga_20200005_en.pdf https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/pdfs/ukpga_20200... (148MM-127MM) / 52 = £390M increase / week so, how about that doubt?
blibble 5y ago
> If the Leave campaign knew that they were going to deliver something other than what they campaigned for, and it's reasonable to suggest they did, then that's fraud that was pretty difficult when none of them were in positions of power
tzs 5y ago
As an American whose only interaction with the UK government is trying to deal with collecting and paying VAT on our online sales to UK residents, I've been very surprised at how long it is taking them to deal with things that I would have expected to be easy, basic things that would have been taken care of very early in the leaving process. I was sure that they would make arrangements to stay in the VAT MOSS system, but no, they did not. So we had to switch to using Ireland for VAT MOSS and register separately with the UK to deal with UK VAT. Dealing with Ireland was a breeze. It took something like 10-20 minutes online to get all set up. (Orders of magnitude easier than when we had signed up for UK VAT MOSS years earlier. Filing is also way easier with Ireland). For the UK we've applied to be able to collect and remit VAT. We finished all the paperwork and submitted it at least 18 months ago and they still haven't processed it. They say they are busy and can't even give an estimate of when they will actually deal with it. They say that in the meantime we should collect UK VAT and just hold on to it until they get around to giving is permission to remit it.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  Unfortunately the brexit-supporting wing of the government seems to have NIH syndrome. So not only have we left the EU, but we've left a whole bunch of institutions that were never a part of the EU and did not come with the same obligations for no apparent reason.
  - blibble 5y ago
    the UK government was quite clear in the Lancaster Speech in 2017 that it was going to leave anything under ECJ jurisdiction I'm not aware of any institutions that were left that didn't match that description, perhaps you know of some?
ectopod 5y ago
People forget there were two separate leave campaigns. This not only gave them double the spending cap, but also let them make wholly incompatible claims about the kind of brexit we would get. They could never have both been right so it was obvious at the time that the claims were merely aspirational.
- gadders 5y ago
  The UK Government sent every household in the UK a leaflet encouraging a Remain vote. I think that probably dwarfs two campaigns.

dudul 5y ago

Don't election winners always deliver something other than what they campaigned for?

onion2k 5y ago
They do, yes. The key thing is that they didn't know what they were campaigning for wasn't possible though, so they often try and fail, or the situation changes to make plans impossible, or they just realised what they wanted to do was actually stupid. All those things are fine. Changing your mind when presented with new data is a good thing. Campaigning while knowing that you plan to do something else is different. The important thing is that you should campaign believing that you will make every effort to implement your plans, else you are defrauding voters. For example, I have no doubt whatsoever that Boris had absolutely no intention of trying to increase NHS funding despite repeated saying he would if people voted leave. That's the difference. He wasn't just wrong or incompetent or unlucky, but instead he was telling people something he knew wouldn't happen.
- blibble 5y ago
  > For example, I have no doubt whatsoever that Boris had absolutely no intention of trying to increase NHS funding despite repeated saying he would if people voted leave. the government did increase NHS funding by more than the bus number (£350 million/week) see NHS Funding Act 2020: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/pdfs/ukpga_20200005_en.pdf https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/5/pdfs/ukpga_20200... (148MM-127MM) / 52 = £390M increase / week so, how about that doubt?

blibble 5y ago

> If the Leave campaign knew that they were going to deliver something other than what they campaigned for, and it's reasonable to suggest they did, then that's fraud that was pretty difficult when none of them were in positions of power

tzs 5y ago

As an American whose only interaction with the UK government is trying to deal with collecting and paying VAT on our online sales to UK residents, I've been very surprised at how long it is taking them to deal with things that I would have expected to be easy, basic things that would have been taken care of very early in the leaving process. I was sure that they would make arrangements to stay in the VAT MOSS system, but no, they did not. So we had to switch to using Ireland for VAT MOSS and register separately with the UK to deal with UK VAT. Dealing with Ireland was a breeze. It took something like 10-20 minutes online to get all set up. (Orders of magnitude easier than when we had signed up for UK VAT MOSS years earlier. Filing is also way easier with Ireland). For the UK we've applied to be able to collect and remit VAT. We finished all the paperwork and submitted it at least 18 months ago and they still haven't processed it. They say they are busy and can't even give an estimate of when they will actually deal with it. They say that in the meantime we should collect UK VAT and just hold on to it until they get around to giving is permission to remit it.

nicoburns 5y ago
Unfortunately the brexit-supporting wing of the government seems to have NIH syndrome. So not only have we left the EU, but we've left a whole bunch of institutions that were never a part of the EU and did not come with the same obligations for no apparent reason.
- blibble 5y ago
  the UK government was quite clear in the Lancaster Speech in 2017 that it was going to leave anything under ECJ jurisdiction I'm not aware of any institutions that were left that didn't match that description, perhaps you know of some?

ectopod 5y ago

People forget there were two separate leave campaigns. This not only gave them double the spending cap, but also let them make wholly incompatible claims about the kind of brexit we would get. They could never have both been right so it was obvious at the time that the claims were merely aspirational.

gadders 5y ago
The UK Government sent every household in the UK a leaflet encouraging a Remain vote. I think that probably dwarfs two campaigns.