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Well, I'm sure the CDC is made up of humans ;) Are you using humans as a codeword for certain types of people? I see this sometimes used to imply people of a pa

Well, I'm sure the CDC is made up of humans ;) Are you using humans as a codeword for certain types of people? I see this sometimes used to imply people of a particular ideology, rather than literally meaning all humans but don't know if you mean that here. I understand that you trust the people around you. That's perfectly natural and expected. Unfortunately, in this very unusual case I fear it's leading you astray. Let's set aside whether the CDC are genuinely doing the best they can, and leave it at the fact that if this is their best, they need to be shut down. They have: • Withheld vast amounts of critical data from the public and distorted the rest (e.g. the way they like to aggregate "unknown vaccine status" with "unvaccinated"). • Published pseudo-scientific studies that don't prove what they're claimed to prove, e.g. studies that lack control groups. • Gone well well outside their legal boundaries e.g. with rent controls. • Appear to have a worse understanding of biology than ordinary journalists. Consider this video of the head of the CDC: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/cdc-director-walensky-reveals-she/comments?s=r https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/cdc-director-walensky-re... "Nobody said waning, when when you know, oh this vaccine’s going to work. Oh well, maybe it’ll work - (laughs) it’ll wear off. Nobody said what if the next variant doesn’t, it doesn’t, it’s not as potent against the next variant." But this is absurd. I was telling my own parents at the end of 2020 that I was very skeptical about the chances of a vaccine because nobody has ever made a successful coronavirus vaccine before, not because it's inherently impossible but because the viruses mutate so quickly that it stops working almost immediately. This is exactly what ended up happening. As Berenson points out in the linked page, he correctly predicted in January 2021 that by the end of the year the virus would have mutated, effectiveness would have consequently disappeared, people would be given third doses and the side effect profile of three doses would be worse than two. All this has occurred. Yet, the head of the CDC was left astonished by all this, apparently because nobody at the CDC told her. What does that say about the best that the humans at the CDC are capable of? The CDC matters because unfortunately, in many realms - media and medical in particular - there is strong moral and legal pressure to simply parrot authority. Were the people really reporting their own experiences to you, or were they reporting what they felt sounded right? Often it's been the latter, even for people in trusted positions like hospitals. There are big penalties for anyone who doesn't: https://trialsitenews.com/doctors-sanctioned-for-speaking-out-against-official-covid-policies/ https://trialsitenews.com/doctors-sanctioned-for-speaking-ou... "Six U.S. doctors have had their licenses suspended and 18 more threatened as they are accused of spreading misinformation about COVID-19. The action comes amidst concern that their claims are generating mistrust in officially sanctioned health measures used to combat the pandemic." This sort of thing has been going on globally. If you knew you'd lose your job for speaking out, you'd rapidly find ways to rationalize to yourself why everything is peachy. "Also my wife's father remembers well, what life was like before the polio vaccine and how everyone ("every mother's son" as he put it) wanted a vaccine to avoid that grief, once it became available." Does he remember that the Polio vaccine caused 200,000 cases of Polio due to a manufacturing error, I wonder? It was the Polio vaccine that led directly to vaccine manufacturing being excluded from normal product safety/liability laws, because otherwise nobody would make them anymore. Honestly, before 2021 I never thought about vaccines. Having seen up close how this space operates, I find myself deeply unenthusiastic about them now. It's obvious that if anything goes wrong everyone in authority lies rather than admit having encouraged or forced something harmful/useless/both on millions of people. It's the scale factor that does it, I suspect. Vaccines always cause some bad side effects in some people, so to deploy them requires knowingly sacrificing some innocent healthy people "for the greater good". It's hard enough to make such a tradeoff in the best of times but especially when a disease is rare, or mild, or outright disappears, the moral issues become so grey or outright black that the only way to proceed is to engage in self delusion. The problem can be solved by only ever releasing neutral, honest data and not making recommendations or mandates, but public health officials don't think that way. They believe everyone is stupid, even though - as Walensky demonstrates - the standards of knowledge required to succeed in public health are very low indeed.

lcall 5y ago
By humans I just mean a group of fallible people, some of whom are probably trying to do a good job. I do not think government authority is infallible -- clearly that is not so. And in any large group, especially government, there are those attracted to power, a low-accountability steady pay, etc. My own experiences also bear this out (I wrote about that on my website -- medicare for all sounds disastrous). But the vaccines and masks do seem quite relevant and worth using. I am not qualified to debate if the CDC has been a reliable source of info in everything (I would assume not). I don't think the vaccine effectiveness has disappeared, but may be slightly reduced over time. From all I read, those dying in hospitals now (edit: from covid-19) are almost exclusively not fully vaccinated. Again, local hospitals and sources. Sounds sad about those doctors, regardless of who is right. We should all try to practice honesty and the Golden Rule. That matters very much. Even if there were 200,000 cases of polio from the vacc (I think I remember reading something like that; I don't recall the #s), that sounds like human error (also sad), which must be corrected as far as possible, and it has still done vastly more good than harm, overall, through the history, as have MMR vaccs etc. I'll be honest -- I read a lot, from traceable sources (not facebook etc), and that influences me, and I say all the above based on that. But my biggest influences are the 15 (12, plus 3 in what we call the First Presidency) apostles of our worldwide Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (around 17 million members in most countries, most members now outside the USA, does a surprisingly large amount of humanitarian work worldwide with many partners, very family-oriented, and the best influence in my life--it's too much work, if it weren't true; more at my site on how I determined things for myself). So much to say there, it wouldn't fit in an HN thread but I have put it at my web site (in profile). The current president (prophet), Russell M. Nelson, had a pioneering career in open heart surgery before he was called (asked) to be a Church leader, initially a junior member of the 12, which is a lifelong assignment (he is now 95 or so). But neither he nor the others are worshipped, considered infallible, etc. But I have determined for myself, not by blind faith, that it is safe in life to follow their voices when they speak unitedly. In fact, we believe (and I believe) they are directed by God, and generally do their best to study issues before asking for direction. They have endorsed vaccines for decades, as having saved many lives. I would probably be considered an "arch-conservative" by some people's standards, but science, while also not infallible, is a useful tool, even essential for us, and all things should be done with wisdom and humility (that corroboration etc that I mentioned earlier). As far as I can tell, the people I referred to were reporting their own experiences. Definitely true with some of them, and seems highly likely true for the rest. I, with you, disagree with mandates. I knew someone I consider trustworthy, who had a strong feeling not to vaccinate one of her children. Years later, when it was required for school, and done, the child became sick from it, and the mom was told by a medical pro that if the child had been given that vaccine as an infant, she probably would have died. I think we agree that the best, honest info we can get is very important, and that the parents or individuals are the best to make final decisions. But if schools or other institutions want to limit attendance to those that are less likely to harm others by spreading diseases, I can see there is a good discussion to be had there, for each case, and that more local decision-making is usually for the better. Unfortunately, many humans cannot be trusted, based on their behavior over time. It takes ongoing effort to decide what to trust. I believe there is a path for all of us to find peace in this life, even amid the increasing commotion and confusion, and Eternal life in the world to come. Still curious as to your thoughts from my previous comment's last paragraph, but no pressure. (I think we probably agree on many things. And I'm sure I could have said some things better than I did.)

lcall 5y ago

By humans I just mean a group of fallible people, some of whom are probably trying to do a good job. I do not think government authority is infallible -- clearly that is not so. And in any large group, especially government, there are those attracted to power, a low-accountability steady pay, etc. My own experiences also bear this out (I wrote about that on my website -- medicare for all sounds disastrous). But the vaccines and masks do seem quite relevant and worth using. I am not qualified to debate if the CDC has been a reliable source of info in everything (I would assume not). I don't think the vaccine effectiveness has disappeared, but may be slightly reduced over time. From all I read, those dying in hospitals now (edit: from covid-19) are almost exclusively not fully vaccinated. Again, local hospitals and sources. Sounds sad about those doctors, regardless of who is right. We should all try to practice honesty and the Golden Rule. That matters very much. Even if there were 200,000 cases of polio from the vacc (I think I remember reading something like that; I don't recall the #s), that sounds like human error (also sad), which must be corrected as far as possible, and it has still done vastly more good than harm, overall, through the history, as have MMR vaccs etc. I'll be honest -- I read a lot, from traceable sources (not facebook etc), and that influences me, and I say all the above based on that. But my biggest influences are the 15 (12, plus 3 in what we call the First Presidency) apostles of our worldwide Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (around 17 million members in most countries, most members now outside the USA, does a surprisingly large amount of humanitarian work worldwide with many partners, very family-oriented, and the best influence in my life--it's too much work, if it weren't true; more at my site on how I determined things for myself). So much to say there, it wouldn't fit in an HN thread but I have put it at my web site (in profile). The current president (prophet), Russell M. Nelson, had a pioneering career in open heart surgery before he was called (asked) to be a Church leader, initially a junior member of the 12, which is a lifelong assignment (he is now 95 or so). But neither he nor the others are worshipped, considered infallible, etc. But I have determined for myself, not by blind faith, that it is safe in life to follow their voices when they speak unitedly. In fact, we believe (and I believe) they are directed by God, and generally do their best to study issues before asking for direction. They have endorsed vaccines for decades, as having saved many lives. I would probably be considered an "arch-conservative" by some people's standards, but science, while also not infallible, is a useful tool, even essential for us, and all things should be done with wisdom and humility (that corroboration etc that I mentioned earlier). As far as I can tell, the people I referred to were reporting their own experiences. Definitely true with some of them, and seems highly likely true for the rest. I, with you, disagree with mandates. I knew someone I consider trustworthy, who had a strong feeling not to vaccinate one of her children. Years later, when it was required for school, and done, the child became sick from it, and the mom was told by a medical pro that if the child had been given that vaccine as an infant, she probably would have died. I think we agree that the best, honest info we can get is very important, and that the parents or individuals are the best to make final decisions. But if schools or other institutions want to limit attendance to those that are less likely to harm others by spreading diseases, I can see there is a good discussion to be had there, for each case, and that more local decision-making is usually for the better. Unfortunately, many humans cannot be trusted, based on their behavior over time. It takes ongoing effort to decide what to trust. I believe there is a path for all of us to find peace in this life, even amid the increasing commotion and confusion, and Eternal life in the world to come. Still curious as to your thoughts from my previous comment's last paragraph, but no pressure. (I think we probably agree on many things. And I'm sure I could have said some things better than I did.)