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Do these cloud gaming offerings really make a profit with current hardware costs? I feel like large companies are pouring money into this with the hope that th

Do these cloud gaming offerings really make a profit with current hardware costs? I feel like large companies are pouring money into this with the hope that they will be able to lock users into their cloud offering. However, it is likely they are losing huge amounts of money because of the hardware costs.

zitterbewegung 5y ago
Not 100% about this guess that I have but if its "free" it probably means that they calculated that they have x% extra server availability and they provide that for "free". Google Colab makes it obvious when they provide you a GPU but I don't know about Microsoft.
- YPPH 5y ago
  Exactly what I was thinking, they can just use spare Azure capacity.
  - charcircuit 5y ago
    The only problem is you need powerful machines with GPUs which will only be a small subset of spare capacity.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
MikusR 5y ago
Microsoft is using Xbox Series X. Nvidia is using their own GPUs.
- bentcorner 5y ago
  Here's what the Xbox cloud hardware looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5g4Xqy8kG4&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5g4Xqy8kG4&t=18s
  - treesknees 5y ago
    Is this essentially 4 xbox's crammed into a 2U server?
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Yep, and this is one of the reasons why devs don't care about Stadia, with NVidia and Microsoft offerings they basically have to fine tune existing code to cloud workloads, not rewrite it from scratch betting into a vendor that is know to kill products.
      - enos_feedler 5y ago
        Curious where you work or who you know that gives you the strong insight that developers don’t care about Stadia. Can you share?
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Where I work doesn't have anything to do with games. I follow game development since the 16 bit demoscene days when I used to hang around with crackers, switchers and ProTracker musicians, read Hugi, then I graduate to being a IGDA member, Gamasutra subscriber during its existence, consumer of MakeGames and Develop, attended a couple of GDCE events, having some interviews at well known console manufacturers and eventually deciding that I would rather keep doing boring enterprise consulting than suject myself to game industry working conditions. Which leaves me with a network of people that are still in the industry, naturally there are opportunities to talk about Stadia and very few of them are impressed with Stadia's track record or its owner long term commitment.
        enos_feedler 5y ago
        Interesting. I used to crack games for Fairlight/Razor 1911, attended siggraph from 2001-2006 (even volunteered for the conference), worked at nvidia for 3 years on the windows GPU driver. I don't talk to anyone about games anymore. I have outgrown consoles but I play stadia on my TV because it doesn't require one. When I show my friends they quickly order a stadia controller and do the same. I also worked at Google in the same building as the stadia team (but not on stadia itself, or related. I don't know anyone who works on it personally)
samstave 5y ago
On similar note, where is HW going once it completes its lifecycle in the cloud? Are pods being donated to schools? This would be a great idea, is to give a pod to a school with management tools etc and teach the kids how to interact with effectively [aws/gcp/azure] mgmt tools to build up a skillset early and accelerate how the yoots understand what cloud is and how its managed.
- quantumduck 5y ago
  I could be wrong, but I think the hardware cannot sustain outside their servers farms without significant investment in the things needed; it's not like the throw away entire server racks at a time, the probably only retire small pieces of the hardware at a time.
Animats 5y ago
Do these cloud gaming offerings really make a profit with current hardware costs? Judging by the ones that have gone broke, no. "Cloud gaming" of the kind where the game runs on a server and the results are sent as video to the client has been tried, on and off, for about five years. Most of the early providers are gone. The trouble is that each user needs an entire server, one comparable to a gamer PC. Cloud gaming services seem to come in two flavors - expensive, and loss leader. Shadow PC is in the expensive category. Price is $30/month. When you connect, they launch a server for you and load your environment into it. So you're buying a part-time VM. Apparently you can stay connected as long as you want, although I'm not sure if there's a limit they are not mentioning up front. NVidia GEForce Now is cheaper. Price is $10/month. You get kicked off after 6 hours. For $17/month, you get a better server with an NVidia 3080 and 8 hours before being kicked off. There's a free tier, where you wait to get in and get kicked off after an hour or two. Originally, the prices were lower, but that was in the loss leader phase. It also helps that NVidia makes GPUs. You can only run games that NVidia has ported to that system. Google Stadia is $10 a month. Games have to be ported to it, and there's suspicion it may soon join the long list of former Google products. Vortex's site now says they are no longer accepting new users, and their blog is a Google Stadia ad.
- officeplant 5y ago
  Keep in mind that the base tier of Google Stadia is completely free when it comes to free to play games like Destiny 2, or if you buy the game outright. I still play Cyberpunk 2077 on the free tier of Stadia due to a promotion where the game was only $45 and came with a controller/chromecast. Sold the hardware to pay for the game and now I just play with an Xbox controller on whatever computer or phone I'm on at the time.
- treis 5y ago
  >Shadow PC is in the expensive category. Price is $30/month. That's surprisingly inexpensive. The graphics card they promise is nearly $1,000 by itself. For what you'd spend on a DIY build you could probably get 4-5 years of subscription.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bob1029 5y ago
I think the primary technical challenge is the scale of AAA games. For me, this stuff gets viable when one game studio goes all-in on building a streaming-only game experience that considers all economics of scaling GPUs. If you reduce visual fidelity enough, you can get away with a lot more clients per host. Hell, depending on how you architect things, you might even be able to serve some clients from servers that dont even have GPUs. The upsides of cloud gaming are pretty solid if you can get over the caveats. The biggest thing for me would be competitive gaming experiences that are guaranteed to not have any cheaters. That would feel really nice.

zitterbewegung 5y ago

Not 100% about this guess that I have but if its "free" it probably means that they calculated that they have x% extra server availability and they provide that for "free". Google Colab makes it obvious when they provide you a GPU but I don't know about Microsoft.

YPPH 5y ago
Exactly what I was thinking, they can just use spare Azure capacity.
- charcircuit 5y ago
  The only problem is you need powerful machines with GPUs which will only be a small subset of spare capacity.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

MikusR 5y ago

Microsoft is using Xbox Series X. Nvidia is using their own GPUs.

bentcorner 5y ago
Here's what the Xbox cloud hardware looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5g4Xqy8kG4&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5g4Xqy8kG4&t=18s
- treesknees 5y ago
  Is this essentially 4 xbox's crammed into a 2U server?
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Yep, and this is one of the reasons why devs don't care about Stadia, with NVidia and Microsoft offerings they basically have to fine tune existing code to cloud workloads, not rewrite it from scratch betting into a vendor that is know to kill products.
    - enos_feedler 5y ago
      Curious where you work or who you know that gives you the strong insight that developers don’t care about Stadia. Can you share?
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Where I work doesn't have anything to do with games. I follow game development since the 16 bit demoscene days when I used to hang around with crackers, switchers and ProTracker musicians, read Hugi, then I graduate to being a IGDA member, Gamasutra subscriber during its existence, consumer of MakeGames and Develop, attended a couple of GDCE events, having some interviews at well known console manufacturers and eventually deciding that I would rather keep doing boring enterprise consulting than suject myself to game industry working conditions. Which leaves me with a network of people that are still in the industry, naturally there are opportunities to talk about Stadia and very few of them are impressed with Stadia's track record or its owner long term commitment.
        enos_feedler 5y ago
        Interesting. I used to crack games for Fairlight/Razor 1911, attended siggraph from 2001-2006 (even volunteered for the conference), worked at nvidia for 3 years on the windows GPU driver. I don't talk to anyone about games anymore. I have outgrown consoles but I play stadia on my TV because it doesn't require one. When I show my friends they quickly order a stadia controller and do the same. I also worked at Google in the same building as the stadia team (but not on stadia itself, or related. I don't know anyone who works on it personally)

samstave 5y ago

On similar note, where is HW going once it completes its lifecycle in the cloud? Are pods being donated to schools? This would be a great idea, is to give a pod to a school with management tools etc and teach the kids how to interact with effectively [aws/gcp/azure] mgmt tools to build up a skillset early and accelerate how the yoots understand what cloud is and how its managed.

quantumduck 5y ago
I could be wrong, but I think the hardware cannot sustain outside their servers farms without significant investment in the things needed; it's not like the throw away entire server racks at a time, the probably only retire small pieces of the hardware at a time.

Animats 5y ago

Do these cloud gaming offerings really make a profit with current hardware costs? Judging by the ones that have gone broke, no. "Cloud gaming" of the kind where the game runs on a server and the results are sent as video to the client has been tried, on and off, for about five years. Most of the early providers are gone. The trouble is that each user needs an entire server, one comparable to a gamer PC. Cloud gaming services seem to come in two flavors - expensive, and loss leader. Shadow PC is in the expensive category. Price is $30/month. When you connect, they launch a server for you and load your environment into it. So you're buying a part-time VM. Apparently you can stay connected as long as you want, although I'm not sure if there's a limit they are not mentioning up front. NVidia GEForce Now is cheaper. Price is $10/month. You get kicked off after 6 hours. For $17/month, you get a better server with an NVidia 3080 and 8 hours before being kicked off. There's a free tier, where you wait to get in and get kicked off after an hour or two. Originally, the prices were lower, but that was in the loss leader phase. It also helps that NVidia makes GPUs. You can only run games that NVidia has ported to that system. Google Stadia is $10 a month. Games have to be ported to it, and there's suspicion it may soon join the long list of former Google products. Vortex's site now says they are no longer accepting new users, and their blog is a Google Stadia ad.

officeplant 5y ago
Keep in mind that the base tier of Google Stadia is completely free when it comes to free to play games like Destiny 2, or if you buy the game outright. I still play Cyberpunk 2077 on the free tier of Stadia due to a promotion where the game was only $45 and came with a controller/chromecast. Sold the hardware to pay for the game and now I just play with an Xbox controller on whatever computer or phone I'm on at the time.
treis 5y ago
>Shadow PC is in the expensive category. Price is $30/month. That's surprisingly inexpensive. The graphics card they promise is nearly $1,000 by itself. For what you'd spend on a DIY build you could probably get 4-5 years of subscription.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bob1029 5y ago

I think the primary technical challenge is the scale of AAA games. For me, this stuff gets viable when one game studio goes all-in on building a streaming-only game experience that considers all economics of scaling GPUs. If you reduce visual fidelity enough, you can get away with a lot more clients per host. Hell, depending on how you architect things, you might even be able to serve some clients from servers that dont even have GPUs. The upsides of cloud gaming are pretty solid if you can get over the caveats. The biggest thing for me would be competitive gaming experiences that are guaranteed to not have any cheaters. That would feel really nice.