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The idea that NATO's expansion east is what pushed Russia to invade Ukraine is frankly ridiculous. I can see how it's problematic for them, and they did bring i

The idea that NATO's expansion east is what pushed Russia to invade Ukraine is frankly ridiculous. I can see how it's problematic for them, and they did bring it up before the invasion, but that was mainly more lies, the war had already been planned and decided months ago. Putin has said that Ukraine is a historical mistake, and laments the dissolution of the Soviet union. This war is because he want's to create a larger Russian empire, not a preemptive strike for self defense.

acdha 5y ago
It's also catastrophically self-fulfilling: it's not like the eastern NATO members joined on a whim, they worked hard to make the case for it because they knew what living next to Russia meant and didn't want to be next. The war of conquest in Ukraine has done more to encourage continued NATO expansion than everything the older members have done in decades combined.
- sorenjan 5y ago
  Exactly. The only reason NATO isn't in Ukraine and kicking the invaders out right now is because Ukraine isn't a NATO member. Meanwhile, NATO has been very clear about defending every inch of their member's territory. That's a very convincing argument for Russia's neighboring countries. I live in one of them, and I've been against a NATO membership until now, because I ruled out the possibility of war in Europe in my lifetime. I was wrong.
  - acdha 5y ago
    You had plenty of company in that mistaken assumption, sadly, and I'm afraid to ask how many other people will pay the price before it's over.
UnFleshedOne 5y ago
I'm no fan of the invasion, but "the war had already been planned and decided months ago" is not an argument you might think it is -- NATO stuff was going on pretty much since USSR dissolution, and 2014 stuff with Crimea was first act in the same war, in response to regime change on Ukraine and some progress in shelf oil development there that threatened Russia's hold on EU markets.

acdha 5y ago

It's also catastrophically self-fulfilling: it's not like the eastern NATO members joined on a whim, they worked hard to make the case for it because they knew what living next to Russia meant and didn't want to be next. The war of conquest in Ukraine has done more to encourage continued NATO expansion than everything the older members have done in decades combined.

sorenjan 5y ago
Exactly. The only reason NATO isn't in Ukraine and kicking the invaders out right now is because Ukraine isn't a NATO member. Meanwhile, NATO has been very clear about defending every inch of their member's territory. That's a very convincing argument for Russia's neighboring countries. I live in one of them, and I've been against a NATO membership until now, because I ruled out the possibility of war in Europe in my lifetime. I was wrong.
- acdha 5y ago
  You had plenty of company in that mistaken assumption, sadly, and I'm afraid to ask how many other people will pay the price before it's over.

UnFleshedOne 5y ago

I'm no fan of the invasion, but "the war had already been planned and decided months ago" is not an argument you might think it is -- NATO stuff was going on pretty much since USSR dissolution, and 2014 stuff with Crimea was first act in the same war, in response to regime change on Ukraine and some progress in shelf oil development there that threatened Russia's hold on EU markets.