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[NOT THE OP] >> All you see is numbers and functions, and all I see is problems being solved by these AI/ML methods and often in quantifiably better ways than
by YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
[NOT THE OP]
>> All you see is numbers and functions, and all I see is problems being solved
by these AI/ML methods and often in quantifiably better ways than intelligent
humans can.
Maybe in playing chess and go, but in any other task that neural networks have
been compared to humans directly, the ability to outperform humans is more
informative of the limitations of the measures of performance, than of the
capabilities of the tested systems (typically, deep neural networks).
Take large language models (LLMs) for example. Last time I looked -it was a
while ago but- LLMs like BERT, ERNIE and their famous friends scored very highly
and even above humans in natural language understanding tasks, such as those in
the GLUE and SUPERGLUE benchmarks.
You'd think that a system that scores 85% in a language understanding task has
developed at least _some_ ability to understand language. And yet this is not
the case. LLMs, despite their ability to score highly in formal benchmarks,
remain dumb as bricks and as incapable of understanding human language as a
rock.
We know this because every once in a while someone in the field of NLP looks
away from their favourite leaderboard for long enough to ask serious questions
about the performance of systems, as for example [1] who started by asking why a
language model like BERT would be any good at argument comprehension (BERT
scored only three points below humans in a relevant benchmark task). Everytime
anyone undertakes this kind of analysis of the abiltiy of LLMs to understand
language, the conclusion is that they don't, and instead they learn "cheap
tricks" and overfit to statistical regularities of the benchmark datasets.
Similar analyses have found similar results in machine vision (e.g. [2], [3])
etc.
The question then is, in what sense, exactly, is an automated system solving
problems "in quantifiably better ways than intelligent humans can", when that
system is not even solving the problem it's supposed to be solving, like the
problem of understanding language by LLMs? The idea that those systems "solve
problems", when they 're really only overfitting to their training sets, is an
artifact of the shoddy scholarship that is typical in deep learning research,
and the OP is right to be concerned that there is little understanding between
machine learning researchers of what, exactly, it is that their systems are
doing- or even trying to do.
And, as the OP points out, I'm afraid that really is the result of a poor
background, not only in sciences and mathematics, but in AI and even machine
learning itself, among the current generation of machine learning researchers.
Contrary to what the OP says, though, this paucity of relevant background is the
result of an influx to the field of people from the sciences, who have a
background in continuous mathematics, but not in AI or computer science. It
is, indeed, a background in computer science that can best guard against
misconceptions about computers being wonder machines with magickal intelligence
abilities. At the very least, you don't have to explain to a computer scientist
why solving one instance of a class of problems does not mean a general solution
for the entire class. That comes built-in to most who have graduated in the
discipline. But is it built-in to phycisists, or biologists, who study very
different systems?
________________
[1] Probing Neural Network Comprehension of Natural Language Arguments
https://aclanthology.org/P19-1459/ https://aclanthology.org/P19-1459/
[2] Intriguing properties of neural networks
https://research.google/pubs/pub42503/ https://research.google/pubs/pub42503/
[3] The Elephant in the Room
https://arxiv.org/abs/1808.03305 https://arxiv.org/abs/1808.03305
- mjburgess 5y agoThe influx of scientists is a fascinating criticism. I guess maybe the lunatics run the asylum here, and what I've seen from recent csci grads is partly because theyre being educated by people without the traditional csci scepticism (which I agree, is there: the older generation of csci academics and much more aligned with my view). Perhaps "scientist" is too vague a term. I mean people with a "in their bones" appreciation of experimentalism, empirical adequecy etc. What you're saying overall aligns with my view -- no on here is defining empirical adequacy on ML systems as "theories of natural language". As soon as you do this, which would be step1 in any experimental endeavour, the whole show collapses. No one here is being taught to target empirical systems and develop criteria of empirical adequacy... thinking somehow "accuracy on benchmarks" tracks "ability to understand language" -- this, as we both think, is mad. I guess my cultural issue is better described then as "pureish mathematicians" having come to own an empirical field, with all the predicatable nonesenses which follow (whether they are discrete or continous).
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y agoWell, AI research is full of pathologies and I don't decry the "influx" of people from the sciences into the field. I'm just worried that the people who enter the field don't understand what's going on because they don't know what's been done before. To the extent that scientists from other fields can bring in the tools that computer science is lacking and a fresh new look at what AI reserach has done so far, then it's great to have them. I'm convinced, like I think you are, that progress towards artificial intelligence can only be achieved by an inter-disciplinary approach. >> (...) the older generation of csci academics and much more aligned with my view). That's true and hardbreaking. I don't know what we can do about that. The success of big tech corporations has broken computer science education, I'm afraid, and now all that graduates care about is how to make a six-figure salary at a FAANG.