7 ms·

The fact that pro putin’s propaganda channel comments are getting upvoted, while those against are downvoted says a lot about the type of people that use this f

The fact that pro putin’s propaganda channel comments are getting upvoted, while those against are downvoted says a lot about the type of people that use this forum. Russia today and sputnik constantly promote anti western values, politicians and groups and are a major source of misinformation yet some call banning these weapons of war censorship. Appalling.

iso1210 5y ago
HN has some of the most pro-putin comments I see anywhere. These are established accounts with years of history talking about tech, so not Russian bots or whatever.
- mopsi 5y ago
  Not everyone is a paid shill. Lots of tech people are Russians and/or from Russia and support the war in Ukraine. Independent polling shows that the majority of people in Russia support the war, including the majority of the highly educated.
  - keymone 5y ago
    There is no sociology in a dictatorship where everybody knows about repercussions of expressing an opinion that goes against their glorious leader's will.
  - jlokier 5y ago
    > Independent polling shows that the majority of people in Russia support the war, including the majority of the highly educated. Is there any independent polling in Russia? Is it even possible? I am under the impression the penalties for being against the war are severe and getting worse, to the point that even having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police. Who in their right mind would answer a poll question honestly in Russia now? There is also the question of whether Russians even know there's a war where Russia is the aggressor against a democratic state, and attacking civilians. There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening - instead they think there is no war, that it's a lie propagated by Western aggressors against Russia, and that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine to liberate the people. If I were in Russia and asked my view, and highly educated for real on the actual circumstances, I'd answer that I was pro special military operation (what war?) because there's a chance the person asking is special police and I might end up in prison - or provoke an investigation which gets my friends into prison - if I say anything else.
    - foverzar 5y ago
      > to the point that even having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police Sounds ridiculous, like a half-fake unnuanced broken-phone twisted misrepresentation. > There is also the question of whether Russians even know there's a war where Russia is the aggressor against a democratic state, and attacking civilians. There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening - instead they think there is no war, that it's a lie propagated by Western aggressors against Russia, and that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine to liberate the people And this, kids, is the exact reason why we need a real pluralism of opinions and shouldn't rely on one-sided biased sources, as you can't even do a reality check. > If I were in Russia and asked my view, and highly educated for real on the actual circumstances, I'd answer that I was pro special military operation (what war?) because there's a chance the person asking is special police and I might end up in prison - or provoke an investigation which gets my friends into prison - if I say anything else. This image is cartoonishly ridiculous. Do you actually unironically believe in some sort of secret police, asking for your opinion on war? Seriously? Everyone in Russia knows there is a war and no one really "supports" it. But enough people somewhat understand reasons for it, or rather just blame incompetent politicians from all sides. A lot of people obviously don't believe the "attacking civilians" part, simply because it's an overly convenient propaganda narrative and also a lot of video evidence of this are old recycled videos from attacks on Donetsk, that Russians had already seen before, having been in the loop much longer than average Westerner. There is actually the question of whether Westerners even know that there has already been 13k bodies death toll before the invasion, or that Ukraine actually incorporates neonazi rhetorics and symbolics in their National Guard (google Azov Battalion) Lots would laugh over calling Ukraine "democratic", given the coup, the dismantling of opposition (both in politics and media) and the "ukrainisation" laws. Most consider Ukraine to be just as oligarchy as Russia, but with a more ochlocratic spin, rather then autocratic.
      - jlokier 5y ago
        >> having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police > Sounds ridiculous, like a half-fake unnuanced broken-phone twisted misrepresentation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30578125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30578125 "Moscow police officers stop people, request their phones to read their messages" Read the comments, not just the headline. It sounds like what many people would expect in any country tending towards dictatorship. If it's not happening, then of course, great. But it doesn't sound ridiculous. >> There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening > And this, kids, is the exact reason why we need a real pluralism of opinions and shouldn't rely on one-sided biased sources, as you can't even do a reality check. And thank you for contributing your own opinion. It could have done without the "that's ridiculous" etc. though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487 "My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me" Parents say things that children see are contradicted with their own eyes. The parents are, like your writing, dismissive, laughing it off, saying the other person is silly. Understandably, the children are distressed and think their parents are out of touch with reality. In the West we all know large numbers of people who think naive things. So it's reasonable to think there can be plenty of Russians who think in that way too. >> If I were in Russia and asked my view, > This image is cartoonishly ridiculous. Do you actually unironically believe in some sort of secret police, asking for your opinion on war? Russians leaving Russia in a hurry have said they were questioned at the airport by border guards about their views on the war, and being very afraid that if they give the wrong answers they won't be free to leave. There is certainly some asking about opinions on war going on. Maybe it's too much to worry about secret police in some countries. But at least parts of Russia have a long history of secret police and good reasons for paranoia during the cold war. You cannot dismiss the re-emergence of that out of hand. We still remember the polonium-204 and recent Novichok poisonings by Russia in the UK, so we're inclined to think of Putin as still thinking that way. So with that in mind, we were talking about "independent polls". That means phoning people at random, or similar. It's not that I'd expect some poller to be secret police, it's the 1% possibility that my answer might get processed somewhere with extremely bad consequences if I were frank and vocal with my answers. What would you think if someone you've never met or heard of phoned you at random, in Moscow, to ask your views on the war in the last few days? The recently enacted anti-protest law with ridiculously long prison sentences shows there is a crackdown happening. We know the authorities like to hand out long sentences for holding the "wrong" views. Remind me, how long has Navalny been imprisoned so far? "Alexei Navalny faces 15 more years in prison as new trial starts" (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/15/alexei-navalny-faces-10-more-years-prison-focus-ukraine-crisis-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/15/alexei-navalny...).
  - IE6 5y ago
    Anecdotally, even if you say something like "I think sanctions will just hurt every day people who are just like me and you and probably just want to live a happy life without wars and not the people making the decisions to start war" people get incensed and call you a shill / bot / etc. It's a strange time.
- blub 5y ago
  What you’re seeing here is a place which is not 100% anti-Russia and recognizes that there are gray areas to anything. This is invaluable and anyone who values liberal democracies should support such discussion forums. The problem is, many people only support liberal democracy and free speech when it suits them. This was very much visible when censoring and demonizing those that were criticizing vaccines or the policies of Western governments, it’s visible now too.
ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
It's literally censorship. It doesn't stop being censorship just because you want it censored. Trying to redefine words like that insults your readers. People might consider your position a bit more if it's not obscured by your ego.
- keymone 5y ago
  It's censorship of enemy's propaganda vehicle. Since when is that considered "bad"?
  - shabier 5y ago
    Yeah, sure, let's completely depend on our own honest media rather than being able to cross-check it with opposing parties. It surely won't create an echo chamber wherein our own media could report whatever they want, it surely won't result in less objective reporting and more propaganda.
    - keymone 5y ago
      the issue now is not "how good of a reporting does this or that media produce?" the issue is "a literal fascist government is invading a sovereign country and their propaganda machine is in full throttle mode".
      - shabier 5y ago
        > the issue is "a literal fascist government is invading a sovereign country and their propaganda machine is in full throttle mode". Explain to me how you would come to that conclusion if it wasn't for the media? And how would you justify spreading that information if it came from "not really accurate or objective" media? Without being able to cross-check, you're just spreading one-sided gossip, if not rumors like the snake island story.
        keymone 5y ago
        i am ukrainian and i am in contact with multiple people affected on the ground.
logicchains 5y ago
>promote anti western values, politicians and groups and are a major source of misinformation yet some call banning these weapons of war censorship It's pretty damn ironic that in the same breath you accuse Russia of promoting anti-western values, you attack the classic western value of free speech by calling for the banning of news sources you disagree with.
- adolph 5y ago
  Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx
- myko 5y ago
  Not really, we are in the paradox of tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) here. It is in fact a bad idea to let Putin's propaganda machine have unchecked ability to spread anywhere.
  - lamp987 5y ago
    you dont understand the paradox of tolerance
- flas9sd 5y ago
  absolute free speech is an american construct. For historical reasons, in Germany the crime of Volksverhetzung is a thing and I'm glad for there to be limits. There's no question of what RT is doing, they're trolling at the state level.
shabier 5y ago
Just because some commenters disagree with an action doesn't mean they're "pro-Putin". Please refrain from that tribal, binary thinking- it doesn't help the cause.
prions 5y ago
HN in general has taken a hard lurch to the libertarian right as of late. In this highly upvoted value system, there is no higher principle than free speech and no greater sin than censorship. Except censoring the censors, which is viewed more harshly than censorship itself. People will respond and say that HN isn't a monolith, and thats true. At the same time, these extreme takes are dominating the top posts of every thread thats even slightly tangential. One of the top posts on the thread about wifi ovens was about how the government was installing killswitches into smart devices. The view from nowhere [1] is especially relevant nowadays. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalistic_objectivity#View_from_nowhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalistic_objectivity#View_...
throw_m239339 5y ago
Some people are indeed really hard at work at creating a false equivalency or apathy. But it is to be expected on a public forum now. The kremlin is going to use western's freedoms against us, while granting their own citizens none.

iso1210 5y ago

HN has some of the most pro-putin comments I see anywhere. These are established accounts with years of history talking about tech, so not Russian bots or whatever.

mopsi 5y ago
Not everyone is a paid shill. Lots of tech people are Russians and/or from Russia and support the war in Ukraine. Independent polling shows that the majority of people in Russia support the war, including the majority of the highly educated.
- keymone 5y ago
  There is no sociology in a dictatorship where everybody knows about repercussions of expressing an opinion that goes against their glorious leader's will.
- jlokier 5y ago
  > Independent polling shows that the majority of people in Russia support the war, including the majority of the highly educated. Is there any independent polling in Russia? Is it even possible? I am under the impression the penalties for being against the war are severe and getting worse, to the point that even having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police. Who in their right mind would answer a poll question honestly in Russia now? There is also the question of whether Russians even know there's a war where Russia is the aggressor against a democratic state, and attacking civilians. There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening - instead they think there is no war, that it's a lie propagated by Western aggressors against Russia, and that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine to liberate the people. If I were in Russia and asked my view, and highly educated for real on the actual circumstances, I'd answer that I was pro special military operation (what war?) because there's a chance the person asking is special police and I might end up in prison - or provoke an investigation which gets my friends into prison - if I say anything else.
  - foverzar 5y ago
    > to the point that even having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police Sounds ridiculous, like a half-fake unnuanced broken-phone twisted misrepresentation. > There is also the question of whether Russians even know there's a war where Russia is the aggressor against a democratic state, and attacking civilians. There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening - instead they think there is no war, that it's a lie propagated by Western aggressors against Russia, and that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine to liberate the people And this, kids, is the exact reason why we need a real pluralism of opinions and shouldn't rely on one-sided biased sources, as you can't even do a reality check. > If I were in Russia and asked my view, and highly educated for real on the actual circumstances, I'd answer that I was pro special military operation (what war?) because there's a chance the person asking is special police and I might end up in prison - or provoke an investigation which gets my friends into prison - if I say anything else. This image is cartoonishly ridiculous. Do you actually unironically believe in some sort of secret police, asking for your opinion on war? Seriously? Everyone in Russia knows there is a war and no one really "supports" it. But enough people somewhat understand reasons for it, or rather just blame incompetent politicians from all sides. A lot of people obviously don't believe the "attacking civilians" part, simply because it's an overly convenient propaganda narrative and also a lot of video evidence of this are old recycled videos from attacks on Donetsk, that Russians had already seen before, having been in the loop much longer than average Westerner. There is actually the question of whether Westerners even know that there has already been 13k bodies death toll before the invasion, or that Ukraine actually incorporates neonazi rhetorics and symbolics in their National Guard (google Azov Battalion) Lots would laugh over calling Ukraine "democratic", given the coup, the dismantling of opposition (both in politics and media) and the "ukrainisation" laws. Most consider Ukraine to be just as oligarchy as Russia, but with a more ochlocratic spin, rather then autocratic.
    - jlokier 5y ago
      >> having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police > Sounds ridiculous, like a half-fake unnuanced broken-phone twisted misrepresentation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30578125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30578125 "Moscow police officers stop people, request their phones to read their messages" Read the comments, not just the headline. It sounds like what many people would expect in any country tending towards dictatorship. If it's not happening, then of course, great. But it doesn't sound ridiculous. >> There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening > And this, kids, is the exact reason why we need a real pluralism of opinions and shouldn't rely on one-sided biased sources, as you can't even do a reality check. And thank you for contributing your own opinion. It could have done without the "that's ridiculous" etc. though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487 "My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me" Parents say things that children see are contradicted with their own eyes. The parents are, like your writing, dismissive, laughing it off, saying the other person is silly. Understandably, the children are distressed and think their parents are out of touch with reality. In the West we all know large numbers of people who think naive things. So it's reasonable to think there can be plenty of Russians who think in that way too. >> If I were in Russia and asked my view, > This image is cartoonishly ridiculous. Do you actually unironically believe in some sort of secret police, asking for your opinion on war? Russians leaving Russia in a hurry have said they were questioned at the airport by border guards about their views on the war, and being very afraid that if they give the wrong answers they won't be free to leave. There is certainly some asking about opinions on war going on. Maybe it's too much to worry about secret police in some countries. But at least parts of Russia have a long history of secret police and good reasons for paranoia during the cold war. You cannot dismiss the re-emergence of that out of hand. We still remember the polonium-204 and recent Novichok poisonings by Russia in the UK, so we're inclined to think of Putin as still thinking that way. So with that in mind, we were talking about "independent polls". That means phoning people at random, or similar. It's not that I'd expect some poller to be secret police, it's the 1% possibility that my answer might get processed somewhere with extremely bad consequences if I were frank and vocal with my answers. What would you think if someone you've never met or heard of phoned you at random, in Moscow, to ask your views on the war in the last few days? The recently enacted anti-protest law with ridiculously long prison sentences shows there is a crackdown happening. We know the authorities like to hand out long sentences for holding the "wrong" views. Remind me, how long has Navalny been imprisoned so far? "Alexei Navalny faces 15 more years in prison as new trial starts" (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/15/alexei-navalny-faces-10-more-years-prison-focus-ukraine-crisis-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/15/alexei-navalny...).
- IE6 5y ago
  Anecdotally, even if you say something like "I think sanctions will just hurt every day people who are just like me and you and probably just want to live a happy life without wars and not the people making the decisions to start war" people get incensed and call you a shill / bot / etc. It's a strange time.
blub 5y ago
What you’re seeing here is a place which is not 100% anti-Russia and recognizes that there are gray areas to anything. This is invaluable and anyone who values liberal democracies should support such discussion forums. The problem is, many people only support liberal democracy and free speech when it suits them. This was very much visible when censoring and demonizing those that were criticizing vaccines or the policies of Western governments, it’s visible now too.

ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago

It's literally censorship. It doesn't stop being censorship just because you want it censored. Trying to redefine words like that insults your readers. People might consider your position a bit more if it's not obscured by your ego.

keymone 5y ago
It's censorship of enemy's propaganda vehicle. Since when is that considered "bad"?
- shabier 5y ago
  Yeah, sure, let's completely depend on our own honest media rather than being able to cross-check it with opposing parties. It surely won't create an echo chamber wherein our own media could report whatever they want, it surely won't result in less objective reporting and more propaganda.
  - keymone 5y ago
    the issue now is not "how good of a reporting does this or that media produce?" the issue is "a literal fascist government is invading a sovereign country and their propaganda machine is in full throttle mode".
    - shabier 5y ago
      > the issue is "a literal fascist government is invading a sovereign country and their propaganda machine is in full throttle mode". Explain to me how you would come to that conclusion if it wasn't for the media? And how would you justify spreading that information if it came from "not really accurate or objective" media? Without being able to cross-check, you're just spreading one-sided gossip, if not rumors like the snake island story.
      - keymone 5y ago
        i am ukrainian and i am in contact with multiple people affected on the ground.

logicchains 5y ago

>promote anti western values, politicians and groups and are a major source of misinformation yet some call banning these weapons of war censorship It's pretty damn ironic that in the same breath you accuse Russia of promoting anti-western values, you attack the classic western value of free speech by calling for the banning of news sources you disagree with.

adolph 5y ago
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx
myko 5y ago
Not really, we are in the paradox of tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) here. It is in fact a bad idea to let Putin's propaganda machine have unchecked ability to spread anywhere.
- lamp987 5y ago
  you dont understand the paradox of tolerance
flas9sd 5y ago
absolute free speech is an american construct. For historical reasons, in Germany the crime of Volksverhetzung is a thing and I'm glad for there to be limits. There's no question of what RT is doing, they're trolling at the state level.

shabier 5y ago

Just because some commenters disagree with an action doesn't mean they're "pro-Putin". Please refrain from that tribal, binary thinking- it doesn't help the cause.

prions 5y ago

HN in general has taken a hard lurch to the libertarian right as of late. In this highly upvoted value system, there is no higher principle than free speech and no greater sin than censorship. Except censoring the censors, which is viewed more harshly than censorship itself. People will respond and say that HN isn't a monolith, and thats true. At the same time, these extreme takes are dominating the top posts of every thread thats even slightly tangential. One of the top posts on the thread about wifi ovens was about how the government was installing killswitches into smart devices. The view from nowhere [1] is especially relevant nowadays. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalistic_objectivity#View_from_nowhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalistic_objectivity#View_...

throw_m239339 5y ago

Some people are indeed really hard at work at creating a false equivalency or apathy. But it is to be expected on a public forum now. The kremlin is going to use western's freedoms against us, while granting their own citizens none.