5 ms·

Could we understand tips as a lesser form of corruption? I mean, the root cause is similar: low wages incentives the official/waiter to ask for more money dire

Could we understand tips as a lesser form of corruption? I mean, the root cause is similar: low wages incentives the official/waiter to ask for more money directly to a citizen/client, or else. There's no tips where I'm from, so tips have always been strange and unecessary to me. Genuinely wondering. I have no fixed opinion. Edit to add: also a root cause is that both practices are generally accepted in some areas.

dec0dedab0de 5y ago
Tipping is almost the opposite of police corruption. The idea behind tipping is that the wait staff will do a better job if part of their salary depends on impressing the customer. How well this actually works is a different conversation. With police corruption they are purposely doing a bad job to get the bribe, and getting the bribe encourages them to keep doing a bad job. I wish wait staff were paid better, or atleast got an automatic gratuity everywhere, then we wouldn't need tips.
- sdeframond 5y ago
  In theory this is true. In practice... I don't know. Lots of countries have fairly decent service quality without a strong tipping culture. Edit: OK, there is one big difference: tipping is encouraged by the employer while bribery is not.
  - dec0dedab0de 5y ago
    yeah, I think there was a study a while back that said most people tip the same regardless of the quality of service. Which is why I said "How well this actually works is a different conversation"
- runarberg 5y ago
  From a marxist perspective tipping is a scam in order to get cheaper labor. The employer underpays the worker and imposes an extra tax on the customer to fill the gap. This way the employer offsets their risk onto the worker when business is low while still keeping high profits when business is good. If tipping is a form of a corruption, it is the boss—which neither gives nor receives the tip—who is the corrupt one.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Small sample, but my dining experience is typically equivalent between Europe and the US (when comparing like-to-like for restaurant quality). The biggest difference seems to be chain dining in the US, where you get the phony "how you doing?" every 5 minutes, which I find annoying. Maybe some people consider this good service? I'd prefer to be left alone until I'm obviously in need of something (glass almost empty, offer me a refill, no need to ask when the glass is 70% full, etc).
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    "How were those first few bites?"
- thaeli 5y ago
  It's not quite the same thing, but retaliation against people who don't tip well is very much a thing. Since tipping is at the end of the interaction, it doesn't really come up except for repeat customers.. but not tipping when you're a regular is a good way to get your food spat in. I'm American, I grudgingly accept that tipping is how things are done and not tipping would be unfair to wait staff, but even before COVID I was mostly choosing restaurants that don't have table service just to avoid the 20% tip tax.
  - geodel 5y ago
    Yes. I am not sure why only car sales guys get bad rap when restaurants always looking to hide true cost to customers in advertisements.
  - dec0dedab0de 5y ago
    I don't mind paying the tip, in fact I regularly over tip. I have never felt bad for tipping too much. What I don't like is having to spend any mental energy at all deciding how much to tip. With restaurants it's at least a known amount, with other professions who knows how much you're supposed to tip? I don't want to google how much to tip, just change me more, and pay them more.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
Tipping in the US is a lasting legacy of prohibition. Before then, it was considered anti democratic bribery.
alistairSH 5y ago
It's not corruption, unless you consider the whole wage system for restaurant staff in the US to be corrupt. And as tips are paid at the end of service, the waiter doesn't know if you'll tip well or not while serving you. Today, tips are paid because wait staff are paid below minimum wage. This is legal - as tipping is baked into their compensation. It's stupid and anachronistic, but it's not the fault of the staff (though GOOD waiters will often express support for the system because they fear going to fixed wage w/ zero tipping will reduce their income). I'd much prefer a living wage with optional tips for extraordinary service (which seems to be the norm in much of western Europe). Here in the US, 20% gratuity is pretty much expected. And FWIW, I'll pay 25-30% for good service, and to get less than 20%, a waiter would have to be downright awful.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Depends on the state, In California they can’t be be paid below minimum wage.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Good point - most states require the pay to be the greater of 1) normal minimum wage OR 2) wait-specific min wage + tips/hour. So, a waiter should always earn at least minimum wage, but can earn more if tips are good. However, in practice, there are problems with this system. First, waiters who don't earn lots of tips usually get the bad shifts, then fired. Second, lots of room for wage theft.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      And there is a whole bunch of wage theft - you can't forget that wage theft accounts for the most damaging crime by pure value in the US alone. Individual occurrences aren't generally for tons of money, but it happens everywhere.
  - hpkuarg 5y ago
    In no state can a tipped employee be paid below minimum wage. If their base wage plus tips received over hours worked are below the minimum, then the employer is obligated to make up the difference. Of course, not everyone knows this, and I'm sure there are a lot of employers taking advantage of the situation.
geodel 5y ago
Indeed. However with language sophistry it can be justified as low wages in service industry. I of course do not visit restaurants and bars. It helps that good people on social media have advised that stingy/no-tippers must not go to restaurants or bars etc. If they still do so at-least appreciate if waiter spits into their food before serving.
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  > I of course do not visit restaurants and bars Of course.
shuntress 5y ago
With a server, you exchange money for goods & services. Tipping makes the exchange a little weird and tax laws built around the practice can be complex. But it's still fundamentally a "normal" purchase. Not corruption. With a government agent, you are not necessarily supposed to be paying them. Typical bribes are dependent upon an implicit threat of abuse of power rather than being a normal purchase of goods & services. Tips are not a "lesser form of corruption". Unless you were somehow buying something with that tip that would otherwise be off-limits but in that case I think people would call it a bribe.
- mandelbrotwurst 5y ago
  I interpreted the assertion there as being that you're bribing them for better service, and an argument that this is "corrupt" because there is a belief that the service should be provided at a single price that is known to everyone, with equal quality to anyone who is willing to pay it, as opposed to favoring customers who pay extra. That said, it's up for debate whether this is a valid expectation either in the context of public services provided by the government, engagements with private parties, or both.
mikecoles 5y ago
With the Shopping-as-a-service going crazy during the 2020 height of Covid, the 'tips' were very much corrupted. You had to specify the tip amount when placing the order. How was that ever supposed to work? I was watching one very large order of mine where the shopper supposedly showed up to the store 7 minutes before it closed and started marking each of my items as out of stock. Trip was still completed so the tip was taken. 13 hours on hold to get that taken care of. In the US, servers can make much more than minimum wage. Cash tips weren't reported for taxes. Reference: dated waitresses

dec0dedab0de 5y ago

Tipping is almost the opposite of police corruption. The idea behind tipping is that the wait staff will do a better job if part of their salary depends on impressing the customer. How well this actually works is a different conversation. With police corruption they are purposely doing a bad job to get the bribe, and getting the bribe encourages them to keep doing a bad job. I wish wait staff were paid better, or atleast got an automatic gratuity everywhere, then we wouldn't need tips.

sdeframond 5y ago
In theory this is true. In practice... I don't know. Lots of countries have fairly decent service quality without a strong tipping culture. Edit: OK, there is one big difference: tipping is encouraged by the employer while bribery is not.
- dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  yeah, I think there was a study a while back that said most people tip the same regardless of the quality of service. Which is why I said "How well this actually works is a different conversation"
runarberg 5y ago
From a marxist perspective tipping is a scam in order to get cheaper labor. The employer underpays the worker and imposes an extra tax on the customer to fill the gap. This way the employer offsets their risk onto the worker when business is low while still keeping high profits when business is good. If tipping is a form of a corruption, it is the boss—which neither gives nor receives the tip—who is the corrupt one.
alistairSH 5y ago
Small sample, but my dining experience is typically equivalent between Europe and the US (when comparing like-to-like for restaurant quality). The biggest difference seems to be chain dining in the US, where you get the phony "how you doing?" every 5 minutes, which I find annoying. Maybe some people consider this good service? I'd prefer to be left alone until I'm obviously in need of something (glass almost empty, offer me a refill, no need to ask when the glass is 70% full, etc).
- barbazoo 5y ago
  "How were those first few bites?"
thaeli 5y ago
It's not quite the same thing, but retaliation against people who don't tip well is very much a thing. Since tipping is at the end of the interaction, it doesn't really come up except for repeat customers.. but not tipping when you're a regular is a good way to get your food spat in. I'm American, I grudgingly accept that tipping is how things are done and not tipping would be unfair to wait staff, but even before COVID I was mostly choosing restaurants that don't have table service just to avoid the 20% tip tax.
- geodel 5y ago
  Yes. I am not sure why only car sales guys get bad rap when restaurants always looking to hide true cost to customers in advertisements.
- dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  I don't mind paying the tip, in fact I regularly over tip. I have never felt bad for tipping too much. What I don't like is having to spend any mental energy at all deciding how much to tip. With restaurants it's at least a known amount, with other professions who knows how much you're supposed to tip? I don't want to google how much to tip, just change me more, and pay them more.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

Tipping in the US is a lasting legacy of prohibition. Before then, it was considered anti democratic bribery.

alistairSH 5y ago

It's not corruption, unless you consider the whole wage system for restaurant staff in the US to be corrupt. And as tips are paid at the end of service, the waiter doesn't know if you'll tip well or not while serving you. Today, tips are paid because wait staff are paid below minimum wage. This is legal - as tipping is baked into their compensation. It's stupid and anachronistic, but it's not the fault of the staff (though GOOD waiters will often express support for the system because they fear going to fixed wage w/ zero tipping will reduce their income). I'd much prefer a living wage with optional tips for extraordinary service (which seems to be the norm in much of western Europe). Here in the US, 20% gratuity is pretty much expected. And FWIW, I'll pay 25-30% for good service, and to get less than 20%, a waiter would have to be downright awful.

gonehome 5y ago
Depends on the state, In California they can’t be be paid below minimum wage.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Good point - most states require the pay to be the greater of 1) normal minimum wage OR 2) wait-specific min wage + tips/hour. So, a waiter should always earn at least minimum wage, but can earn more if tips are good. However, in practice, there are problems with this system. First, waiters who don't earn lots of tips usually get the bad shifts, then fired. Second, lots of room for wage theft.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    And there is a whole bunch of wage theft - you can't forget that wage theft accounts for the most damaging crime by pure value in the US alone. Individual occurrences aren't generally for tons of money, but it happens everywhere.
- hpkuarg 5y ago
  In no state can a tipped employee be paid below minimum wage. If their base wage plus tips received over hours worked are below the minimum, then the employer is obligated to make up the difference. Of course, not everyone knows this, and I'm sure there are a lot of employers taking advantage of the situation.

geodel 5y ago

Indeed. However with language sophistry it can be justified as low wages in service industry. I of course do not visit restaurants and bars. It helps that good people on social media have advised that stingy/no-tippers must not go to restaurants or bars etc. If they still do so at-least appreciate if waiter spits into their food before serving.

fknorangesite 5y ago
> I of course do not visit restaurants and bars Of course.

shuntress 5y ago

With a server, you exchange money for goods & services. Tipping makes the exchange a little weird and tax laws built around the practice can be complex. But it's still fundamentally a "normal" purchase. Not corruption. With a government agent, you are not necessarily supposed to be paying them. Typical bribes are dependent upon an implicit threat of abuse of power rather than being a normal purchase of goods & services. Tips are not a "lesser form of corruption". Unless you were somehow buying something with that tip that would otherwise be off-limits but in that case I think people would call it a bribe.

mandelbrotwurst 5y ago
I interpreted the assertion there as being that you're bribing them for better service, and an argument that this is "corrupt" because there is a belief that the service should be provided at a single price that is known to everyone, with equal quality to anyone who is willing to pay it, as opposed to favoring customers who pay extra. That said, it's up for debate whether this is a valid expectation either in the context of public services provided by the government, engagements with private parties, or both.

mikecoles 5y ago

With the Shopping-as-a-service going crazy during the 2020 height of Covid, the 'tips' were very much corrupted. You had to specify the tip amount when placing the order. How was that ever supposed to work? I was watching one very large order of mine where the shopper supposedly showed up to the store 7 minutes before it closed and started marking each of my items as out of stock. Trip was still completed so the tip was taken. 13 hours on hold to get that taken care of. In the US, servers can make much more than minimum wage. Cash tips weren't reported for taxes. Reference: dated waitresses