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There were almost 200k civilian deaths in Iraq. Russia will have to try very hard to beat the US there. And don't forget, Iraq was not the only country that the

There were almost 200k civilian deaths in Iraq. Russia will have to try very hard to beat the US there. And don't forget, Iraq was not the only country that the US invaded. Yes, both countries are evil, but US is "number one". edit: " A war of permanent occupation, and oppression, under absolute rule, is not the same." The US set up a puppet government, Putin will likely do the same.

b112 5y ago
[flagged]
- ttybird2 5y ago
  It seems that 13k civilians were killed directly by the US and its allies (around 300 for Russia at this moment). Although I do not see why the civilian deaths caused by the destabilization of the region should not be counted as I don't buy the "they would have died anyway" argument (and even if it was true it would not be a valid justification for not blaming the US for these specific deaths, if someone murders someone you won't just let them free because there were order people looking to kill said person). It was the US that was providing local militias with weapons after all. The middle east being a hotbed of conflicting religions is not an excuse. It just means that the US should have treated the region with a lot more care, you don't go around bombing nuclear reactors and then claim that it is their fault for exploding.
  - b112 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - ttybird2 5y ago
      Ah, there was a misunderstanding. I am talking about the 2003-2011 Iraq war. The ISIS thing is a direct result of the destabilization caused by the invasion. The 13k figure was for that invasion, I do not know how many civilians died by the hands of the US in the ISIS war, although the independent sources cited in wikipedia claim the deaths to be "8,317–13,190". "Second, this was over 5 years, half a decade!" And? The US has not really changed. Look at Yemen, Libya, etc. "Third, great care was taken to not harm civilians." You certainly can't see that great care in the "collateral murder" video. I am sure Russia will also talk about the great care that it took to not hurt civilians. "Fourth, this was the US and her allies, not the US alone. Some of her allies are locals." I don't think that this really changes anything. In addition Russia could claim the same about solders from Chechnya, Belarus, Crimea, etc. "You are working so hard, and diligently, to present the US in the worst light possible" You are working so hard, and diligently, to justify the atrocities that the US committed.
      - dang 5y ago
        Please stop perpetuating flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - dang 5y ago
      Please stop perpetuating flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - krzyk 5y ago
    > It seems that 13k civilians were killed directly by the US and its allies (around 300 for Russia at this moment) According to UN, Russian actions costed 1207 civilians their life, not 300.
    - ttybird2 5y ago
      That figure includes injuries, not only deaths. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113372 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113372
      - krzyk 5y ago
        Yes, you are right, currently 407 deaths. (https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=28179&LangID=E https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...)

b112 5y ago

[flagged]

ttybird2 5y ago
It seems that 13k civilians were killed directly by the US and its allies (around 300 for Russia at this moment). Although I do not see why the civilian deaths caused by the destabilization of the region should not be counted as I don't buy the "they would have died anyway" argument (and even if it was true it would not be a valid justification for not blaming the US for these specific deaths, if someone murders someone you won't just let them free because there were order people looking to kill said person). It was the US that was providing local militias with weapons after all. The middle east being a hotbed of conflicting religions is not an excuse. It just means that the US should have treated the region with a lot more care, you don't go around bombing nuclear reactors and then claim that it is their fault for exploding.
- b112 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    Ah, there was a misunderstanding. I am talking about the 2003-2011 Iraq war. The ISIS thing is a direct result of the destabilization caused by the invasion. The 13k figure was for that invasion, I do not know how many civilians died by the hands of the US in the ISIS war, although the independent sources cited in wikipedia claim the deaths to be "8,317–13,190". "Second, this was over 5 years, half a decade!" And? The US has not really changed. Look at Yemen, Libya, etc. "Third, great care was taken to not harm civilians." You certainly can't see that great care in the "collateral murder" video. I am sure Russia will also talk about the great care that it took to not hurt civilians. "Fourth, this was the US and her allies, not the US alone. Some of her allies are locals." I don't think that this really changes anything. In addition Russia could claim the same about solders from Chechnya, Belarus, Crimea, etc. "You are working so hard, and diligently, to present the US in the worst light possible" You are working so hard, and diligently, to justify the atrocities that the US committed.
    - dang 5y ago
      Please stop perpetuating flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 5y ago
    Please stop perpetuating flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- krzyk 5y ago
  > It seems that 13k civilians were killed directly by the US and its allies (around 300 for Russia at this moment) According to UN, Russian actions costed 1207 civilians their life, not 300.
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    That figure includes injuries, not only deaths. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113372 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113372
    - krzyk 5y ago
      Yes, you are right, currently 407 deaths. (https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=28179&LangID=E https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...)