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No one is forcing anything. Any country can do whatever it wants in it's legal system. If you want to become an economic island like this, it's unlikely anyone

No one is forcing anything. Any country can do whatever it wants in it's legal system. If you want to become an economic island like this, it's unlikely anyone will force anything on you. What matters is whether then you want to trade with the countries who's IP you are using. At that point it becomes extremely unfair to the country that developed the IP. If China steals industry secrets that took billions to develop, and then sells those same products for cheaper (because they get the IP for free) in the west, is that fair? I don't like your rhetoric of the west using force. There is no force or legal requirement if you don't engage with the west. But of course everyone wants to engage with the west, but at that point you have to come to a mutually agreed trade and legal pact. This is normal. This is also voluntary on the part of both countries.

blagie 5y ago
I think this has a pretty limited view of history. If you think no one is forcing anything, I'd encourage you to look at how Commodore Perry opened Japan with gunships, the Opium War which did much the same to China, the East India Company, and similar incidents. Countries which wanted to stay closed to Western-style trade didn't do very well. The tools have gotten more nuanced, but they're still at play. There are quite a few books on the ways the West subverts democratic structures in Africa in order to be able to extract natural resources. China is now getting in on this game too. We still use militaries to protect Western trade interests, especially around key shipping lanes like the Panama and Suez canals.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  Well I was speaking in a modern context. But if you want to speak about it in a historical context, I would ask you explain what you mean by the "west" and the west forcing their values. And I would note you are speaking to someone who's country's been invaded by mongols, ottomans, and russians within the last 1000 years. They all seemed to want to "force" their values on the people living here. Is this a western thing?
  - bilbo0s 5y ago
    I think you guys may be coming from different cultural contexts. In the previous commenter's context the West forcing its ideals informs his/her comments. In your context the mongols, ottomans, and russians forcing their ideals informs your comments. You're both probably right. At the same time, it's ludicrous to tell a, say, Zambian, that no one forced anything on them in the "modern context". When we know we forced everything from their laws, right down to their very borders onto every nation in sub-saharan africa. We even forced them to sign the very treaties we're saying were not forced on them. The leaders who didn't sign, we killed, and put a new leader in place who signed.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      Zambia, just like Venezuala or Cuba, or North Korea, is free to leave whatever system was forced on them by the west. And they can probably steal western trade secrets without many repercussions. Hungary and Poland can test whether they can get outside of the EU's legal jurisdictions and whether they can lead decent lives doing that. Just to reitirate, ultimately these things are actually voluntary. But they come with consequences. And it's not like these western values of trade, and individual rights are really western any more, when Japan and Korea has had success with them, arguably China was well (before Xi). But there are consequences if you want to go it alone, and it's questionable whether other economic systems actually work as well.
      - bilbo0s 5y ago
        The Zambians have opted out. Have you been there recently? The people there have taken the Chinese opportunity and run with it, probably because of what they perceived to be a lack of opportunity in the Western system. I think as the West attempts to keep some of these nations in Western orbit, we need to more openly acknowledge some of the issues our system has caused them in the past. Then we should lay out for them a credible reset that compares favorably to their Chinese opportunity. Absent that, the Chinese will continue to gain outsized influence across Africa because Africans will continue to make decisions that really are just common sense in the current context. Larger point being that we can't simply claim we have not forced anything on people and these places are acting irrationally. From the perspective of a lot of places outside of the West, things have been forced on them, and they are beginning to take what are, from their perspective, perfectly rational actions to rectify these issues.
zozbot234 5y ago
Industry secrets are a freely-chosen alternative to IP; they're not the same as IP. Proper IP protection requires disclosure and is either time-limited (wrt. copyrights and patents) or constrained so as not to impede competition (trademarks). When IP is extended beyond these boundaries, it becomes wrong and a severe drag on economic growth. Such as when IP-related laws are used to impinge on fair dealing, fair use and first-sale rights, e.g. by enforcing oppressive DRM.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Or when patents are extended by yet another 15 years, because of a minor/trivial update to the invention. Or when (criminal) copyright is extended by yet another 70 years, long after the original author has died.

blagie 5y ago

I think this has a pretty limited view of history. If you think no one is forcing anything, I'd encourage you to look at how Commodore Perry opened Japan with gunships, the Opium War which did much the same to China, the East India Company, and similar incidents. Countries which wanted to stay closed to Western-style trade didn't do very well. The tools have gotten more nuanced, but they're still at play. There are quite a few books on the ways the West subverts democratic structures in Africa in order to be able to extract natural resources. China is now getting in on this game too. We still use militaries to protect Western trade interests, especially around key shipping lanes like the Panama and Suez canals.

cloutchaser 5y ago
Well I was speaking in a modern context. But if you want to speak about it in a historical context, I would ask you explain what you mean by the "west" and the west forcing their values. And I would note you are speaking to someone who's country's been invaded by mongols, ottomans, and russians within the last 1000 years. They all seemed to want to "force" their values on the people living here. Is this a western thing?
- bilbo0s 5y ago
  I think you guys may be coming from different cultural contexts. In the previous commenter's context the West forcing its ideals informs his/her comments. In your context the mongols, ottomans, and russians forcing their ideals informs your comments. You're both probably right. At the same time, it's ludicrous to tell a, say, Zambian, that no one forced anything on them in the "modern context". When we know we forced everything from their laws, right down to their very borders onto every nation in sub-saharan africa. We even forced them to sign the very treaties we're saying were not forced on them. The leaders who didn't sign, we killed, and put a new leader in place who signed.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    Zambia, just like Venezuala or Cuba, or North Korea, is free to leave whatever system was forced on them by the west. And they can probably steal western trade secrets without many repercussions. Hungary and Poland can test whether they can get outside of the EU's legal jurisdictions and whether they can lead decent lives doing that. Just to reitirate, ultimately these things are actually voluntary. But they come with consequences. And it's not like these western values of trade, and individual rights are really western any more, when Japan and Korea has had success with them, arguably China was well (before Xi). But there are consequences if you want to go it alone, and it's questionable whether other economic systems actually work as well.
    - bilbo0s 5y ago
      The Zambians have opted out. Have you been there recently? The people there have taken the Chinese opportunity and run with it, probably because of what they perceived to be a lack of opportunity in the Western system. I think as the West attempts to keep some of these nations in Western orbit, we need to more openly acknowledge some of the issues our system has caused them in the past. Then we should lay out for them a credible reset that compares favorably to their Chinese opportunity. Absent that, the Chinese will continue to gain outsized influence across Africa because Africans will continue to make decisions that really are just common sense in the current context. Larger point being that we can't simply claim we have not forced anything on people and these places are acting irrationally. From the perspective of a lot of places outside of the West, things have been forced on them, and they are beginning to take what are, from their perspective, perfectly rational actions to rectify these issues.

zozbot234 5y ago

Industry secrets are a freely-chosen alternative to IP; they're not the same as IP. Proper IP protection requires disclosure and is either time-limited (wrt. copyrights and patents) or constrained so as not to impede competition (trademarks). When IP is extended beyond these boundaries, it becomes wrong and a severe drag on economic growth. Such as when IP-related laws are used to impinge on fair dealing, fair use and first-sale rights, e.g. by enforcing oppressive DRM.

denton-scratch 5y ago
Or when patents are extended by yet another 15 years, because of a minor/trivial update to the invention. Or when (criminal) copyright is extended by yet another 70 years, long after the original author has died.