5 ms·

But that isn't how it works here. You're effectively saying your principled stand against the "system" (which changes nothing) is more important than making the

But that isn't how it works here. You're effectively saying your principled stand against the "system" (which changes nothing) is more important than making the person who served you get paid non slave wages. You went into an establishment that you knew had cheaper prices because staff works for tips and you didn't tip. That makes you a bad person. Sorry not sorry.

ako 5y ago
It doesn't have cheaper prices, it just has misleading marketing. They should be fined for not showing the real prices. If a tip is mandatory there's no real difference from a bribe: you're supposed to pay someone, without it being clearly documented in the price.
AitchEmArsey 5y ago
You can't say "you went into an establishment with cheaper prices and knew this was a requirement" when there is no actual choice - it applies everywhere as far as I've seen; it's not like I can pause my business trip to the US and go to another country for lunch. in that vein, is there a list somewhere of American eateries which pay non-poverty wages and therefore adopt tipping practices which are less morally reprehensible to us foreigners? I'd happily go out of my way when in the US to avoid this particular cultural norm.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Technically, all American restaurants are "an establishment with cheaper prices" for purposes of this discussion. There are really 3 relevant parties here: the restaurant owner, the restaurant staff, and the customer. The owners have lobbied for and gotten exceptions to most minimum wage laws, to the effect that they can pay their staff under minimum wage, with tipping making up the difference. Consequently, if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage (US$7.25 / hr), or applicable local minimum wage if higher [0]. If staff receives tips, the owner is allowed to pay them a much lower wage (don't remember offhand), with tips making up the difference to meet or exceed minimum wage. Some of this may be changing due to worker shortages, but restaurant margins are always pretty thin. Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minimum_wage_by_state_by_year.webp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minimum_wage_by_state_b...
  - dTal 5y ago
    > if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage > Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped Your tl;dr doesn't match. According to you workers make minimum wage irrespective of whether you tip (unless the owner breaks the law), and all your tips do is directly offset owner costs.
    - iudqnolq 5y ago
      Yeah, but the restaurant industry is well known for breaking the law when it's easy. This makes it much easier. See for example https://consumerist.com/2013/04/05/waiters-sue-employer-for-taking-wages-to-cover-walk-outs/ https://consumerist.com/2013/04/05/waiters-sue-employer-for-...
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      "over"
  - AitchEmArsey 5y ago
    I understand how it works; I'm trying to find a "vote with your feet" solution as an alternative to screwing over poorly paid employees by not tipping. The most obvious way to do that is to favour restaurants where tipping is discouraged.
Johnathanb 5y ago

ako 5y ago

It doesn't have cheaper prices, it just has misleading marketing. They should be fined for not showing the real prices. If a tip is mandatory there's no real difference from a bribe: you're supposed to pay someone, without it being clearly documented in the price.

AitchEmArsey 5y ago

You can't say "you went into an establishment with cheaper prices and knew this was a requirement" when there is no actual choice - it applies everywhere as far as I've seen; it's not like I can pause my business trip to the US and go to another country for lunch. in that vein, is there a list somewhere of American eateries which pay non-poverty wages and therefore adopt tipping practices which are less morally reprehensible to us foreigners? I'd happily go out of my way when in the US to avoid this particular cultural norm.

ethbr0 5y ago
Technically, all American restaurants are "an establishment with cheaper prices" for purposes of this discussion. There are really 3 relevant parties here: the restaurant owner, the restaurant staff, and the customer. The owners have lobbied for and gotten exceptions to most minimum wage laws, to the effect that they can pay their staff under minimum wage, with tipping making up the difference. Consequently, if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage (US$7.25 / hr), or applicable local minimum wage if higher [0]. If staff receives tips, the owner is allowed to pay them a much lower wage (don't remember offhand), with tips making up the difference to meet or exceed minimum wage. Some of this may be changing due to worker shortages, but restaurant margins are always pretty thin. Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minimum_wage_by_state_by_year.webp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minimum_wage_by_state_b...
- dTal 5y ago
  > if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage > Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped Your tl;dr doesn't match. According to you workers make minimum wage irrespective of whether you tip (unless the owner breaks the law), and all your tips do is directly offset owner costs.
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    Yeah, but the restaurant industry is well known for breaking the law when it's easy. This makes it much easier. See for example https://consumerist.com/2013/04/05/waiters-sue-employer-for-taking-wages-to-cover-walk-outs/ https://consumerist.com/2013/04/05/waiters-sue-employer-for-...
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    "over"
- AitchEmArsey 5y ago
  I understand how it works; I'm trying to find a "vote with your feet" solution as an alternative to screwing over poorly paid employees by not tipping. The most obvious way to do that is to favour restaurants where tipping is discouraged.

Johnathanb 5y ago